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Reason for concern

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
The future of the construction industry is in jeopardy and the more people that are aware, the better. I posted this a month or so ago in the Veterans thread. I got an email from my IBEW earlier and feel it’s worth sharing. (Not looking for a Union argument here, just making people aware)

Apprenticeship programs are a great thing for workers and the economy. I’ve gone through multiple in my time and I hope they are still going to be around for my kids/grandkids/great grandkids. For everyone to use forever. The program doesn’t get abused by the college loan marketing and it’s a great way to learn a trade while getting paid to do so. People with or without kids need to be aware of what’s going on and need to let the voice be known.
91F0E485-4C91-4797-8F2B-C63F0F5375BE.png
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
I see a whole lot of opinion there that union apprenticeship programs are by default somehow better that anything anyone else could ever create. I support whatever gets people a skill and brings them to the labor force. Union card or not.

I'm also a huge fan of competition and don't believe the unions should have sole claim to skilled trade program certifications. If the new private ones are shit employers will know it and seek union certified candidates.

In short if these private industry certifications are as shitty as they say, then they have nothing to worry about as the union one will still be the "gold standard" as they call it. Yet, somehow they seem very worried about it. Which is very telling to me.

They're freaking out because it weakens the strangelhold they've had on private industry by controlling the candidate pool. With IRAP they will be forced to contend with likely just as skilled candidates who aren't born and raised in their skill by a union.
 

Chass

Active Member
2,172
52
The Hills
If they aren't being charged for the program how would they have the funds to operate the program? Assuming this is being compared to a union funded program which they union employees would still be paying for in dues throughout their entire employment term instead of just for whatever services they needed such as this.
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
This was the snail from helmets to hard hats.

Dear Helmets to Hardhats user:

Helmets to Hardhats has worked for over sixteen years to create better pathways and advocate for the transition of military service members to quality careers with the best training in the construction industry. The registered apprenticeship model of North America’s Building Trades Unions and its contractor partners has ensured our graduates are the best-trained workers with the highest level of skill. We’ve delivered this training at little, to no cost to military service members; a method that has allowed service members to keep their GI Bill dollars.

The future of this gold standard training and the pathway our transitioning Military Service Members use are at risk. A new proposal by the U.S Department of Labor (DOL) could undermine the training and labor standards that are required of federal and state approved registered apprenticeship programs. The DOL has proposed Industry Recognized Apprenticeship Programs (IRAPs) that abandon important protections of the registered system and allow private groups to implement watered-down standards and certify sub-standard quasi-apprenticeship programs.

At Helmets to Hardhats, we are dedicated to providing connections to quality careers and training. IRAPs in construction would jeopardize the quality of construction and the workforce, weakening every community across the country where transitioning veterans reside and are needed. Please help us protect the construction registered apprenticeship system that has provided so much to our nation’s military veterans and families.

The DOL’s public comment period is until August 26, 2019, and we need as many people as possible to submit comments for No IRAPs in Construction. Click on the links below to submit comments, and please share the process with your friends, family and coworkers.


Together, we can defend that which has provided pathways to tens of thousands of military veterans; enabling them to enter the middle class and secure a future for themselves and their families.

Please send your comments to DOL today.

Thank you,

Darrell L Roberts
Helmets to Hardhats
Executive Director
Veteran




Copyright © 2019 Helmets to Hardhats, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because you opted in on our website when you registered at helmetstohardhats.org. We will only ever send you special announcements and newsletters.

Our mailing address is:
Helmets to Hardhats
815 16th ST NW
Washington, DC
20006-4101
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
If they aren't being charged for the program how would they have the funds to operate the program? Assuming this is being compared to a union funded program which they union employees would still be paying for in dues throughout their entire employment term instead of just for whatever services they needed such as this.



Under paragraph (b), an Industry Program is developed or delivered by entities such as trade and industry groups, companies, non-profit organizations, educational institutions, unions, or joint labor-management organizations. For example, an association of software developers could work to develop an Industry Program that provides a credential to apprentices learning to code, or equips those apprentices to sit for an exam as part of their participation in the program. A group of companies that sell or distribute pharmaceuticals could establish an Industry Program that equips apprentices with the knowledge and competencies needed to be proficient in that industry. An individual company could also develop Industry Program(s) to attract new workers and equip them with the skills necessary for proficiency in a particular occupational area. The Department believes that this approach provides flexibility needed for entities to tailor Industry Programs to their own needs. At the same time, paragraph (b) makes clear that an Industry Program is one that has been recognized as a high-quality program by an SRE. These hallmarks of high-quality are further outlined in § 29.22(a)(4), explained below.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Here is a link to the actual proposal. This is not the big bad monster the unions are making it out to be. It's better for the labor force and employers. The unions are freaking out because it reduces their stranglehold of "certifying" skills and thus controlling the candidate pool. It's not detrimental to anyone but their enrollment numbers and pocketbooks.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=ETA-2019-0005-0001
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
This was the snail from helmets to hard hats.

Dear Helmets to Hardhats user:

Helmets to Hardhats has worked for over sixteen years to create better pathways and advocate for the transition of military service members to quality careers with the best training in the construction industry. The registered apprenticeship model of North America’s Building Trades Unions and its contractor partners has ensured our graduates are the best-trained workers with the highest level of skill. We’ve delivered this training at little, to no cost to military service members; a method that has allowed service members to keep their GI Bill dollars.

The future of this gold standard training and the pathway our transitioning Military Service Members use are at risk. A new proposal by the U.S Department of Labor (DOL) could undermine the training and labor standards that are required of federal and state approved registered apprenticeship programs. The DOL has proposed Industry Recognized Apprenticeship Programs (IRAPs) that abandon important protections of the registered system and allow private groups to implement watered-down standards and certify sub-standard quasi-apprenticeship programs.

At Helmets to Hardhats, we are dedicated to providing connections to quality careers and training. IRAPs in construction would jeopardize the quality of construction and the workforce, weakening every community across the country where transitioning veterans reside and are needed. Please help us protect the construction registered apprenticeship system that has provided so much to our nation’s military veterans and families.

The DOL’s public comment period is until August 26, 2019, and we need as many people as possible to submit comments for No IRAPs in Construction. Click on the links below to submit comments, and please share the process with your friends, family and coworkers.

Together, we can defend that which has provided pathways to tens of thousands of military veterans; enabling them to enter the middle class and secure a future for themselves and their families.


Please send your comments to DOL today.

Thank you,

Darrell L Roberts
Helmets to Hardhats
Executive Director
Veteran





Copyright © 2019 Helmets to Hardhats, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because you opted in on our website when you registered at helmetstohardhats.org. We will only ever send you special announcements and newsletters.

Our mailing address is:
Helmets to Hardhats
815 16th ST NW
Washington, DC
20006-4101



H2H is administered by the Center for Military Recruitment, Assessment and Veterans Employment (CMRAVE), a joint labor-management committee created by the Building and Construction Trades Department, AFL-CIO, and several national construction industry employer associations.


.
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Here is a link to the actual proposal. This is not the big bad monster the unions are making it out to be. It's better for the labor force and employers. The unions are freaking out because it reduces their stranglehold of "certifying" skills and thus controlling the candidate pool. It's not detrimental to anyone but their enrollment numbers and pocketbooks.

https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=ETA-2019-0005-0001
Looks pretty bad to me. I think your axe is grinding in the wrong direction. Or maybe I’m just bias as I’ve been union or military most of my life. Like I said earlier, I think this is a way for private schools and such to make more money. You are reading it as if I somehow think I’m a better operator because I’m Union.

Let’s take crane certification as an example. Plenty of bullshit programs out that are put on by individual company’s. And a few that are recognized nationally...mainly one. I don’t want a guy trained by some company that only uses one type of overhead crane to be swinging things over my head in a crawler crane because he paid for some school. With many working trades, OJT is what makes you good. Not some damn school that prints you off a piece of paper.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Looks pretty bad to me. I think your axe is grinding in the wrong direction. Or maybe I’m just bias as I’ve been union or military most of my life. Like I said earlier, I think this is a way for private schools and such to make more money. You are reading it as if I somehow think I’m a better operator because I’m Union.

Let’s take crane certification as an example. Plenty of bullshit programs out that are put on by individual company’s. And a few that are recognized nationally...mainly one. I don’t want a guy trained by some company that only uses one type of overhead crane to be swinging things over my head in a crawler crane because he paid for some school. With many working trades, OJT is what makes you good. Not some damn school that prints you off a piece of paper.


It's not just a school program. It's the actual professional industry itself being allowed to create programs that adhere to standards which must be approved by the Department Of Labor. It also sets forth the measures and guidelines to facilitate the creation of Standards Recognition Entities (SRE) who will establish, recognize, and monitor these programs for compliance. This is nothing more than allowing the actual industry leaders themselves to create apprentice, training, and certification programs independent of the unions who today control the labor market by claiming their trained people are the only qualified people.

As for OJT

Paragraph (b) defines Industry Programs as high-quality apprenticeship programs, wherein an individual obtains workplace-relevant knowledge and progressively-advancing skills, that include a paid-work component and an educational or instructional component, and that result in an industry-recognized credential.

"The Department proposes recognizing entities that show that they have the expertise to set standards for high-quality programs that result in industry-recognized credentials and equip apprentices with competencies needed for proficiency in specified industries or occupational areas, as would be demonstrated through components of the entity's proposed application "
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Industry specific training has always been done and will continue. Why would I want to work next to someone that wasn’t trained specifically to work around high voltage because he was trained on a backhoe?
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Industry specific training has always been done and will continue. Why would I want to work next to someone that wasn’t trained specifically to work around high voltage because he was trained on a backhoe?

Why would you assume your example is the case and that somehow the Department of Labor and industry certified guy is somehow a lackey simply because he's not a union guy. This mentality and the impact it has on the labor pool is exactly why a program like this is needed.
 
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Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
The following people walk into a job interview. Who can do the job better?

20 year union journeyman drywall guy
20 year industry certified drywall guy
20 year experience legal hispanic drywall guy

The answer is we don't know....

The carpenters union claims that their card-carrying journeyman who completed their apprenticeship program is the ONLY "qualified" applicant. Give me a break, we all know that Jose can and will probably work circles around that guy. And if the other fella with 20 years in the industry can complete the approved course for his private industry certification then he is no less of an employee. The middle guy should not be discredited simply because the unions are attempting to control the labor pool.

The bottom line is their needs to be a pathway for people who don't want to join unions to get, practice, and succeed at a skilled trade.
 
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giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
Why would you assume your example is the case and that somehow the Department of Labor and industry certified guy is somehow a lackey simply because he's not a union guy. This mentality and the impact it has on the labor pool is exactly why a program like this is needed.
Because a non union person is trained to do all jobs. Union members are trained to be the best at one job. I wouldn’t get in a bucket and try and be a lineman. Industry differences and why union work cost more money. It takes 3 people to do the job safely and correct, not one. If others are willing to step up, I’m good with it and stand behind it 110%. But if Jose wants to go from a factory and think he can work next to me for the same pay, nah bro.
 
The following people walk into a job interview. Who can do the job better?

20 year union journeyman drywall guy
20 year industry certified drywall guy
20 year experience legal hispanic drywall guy

The answer is we don't know....

The carpenters union claims that their card-carrying journeyman who completed their apprenticeship program is the ONLY "qualified" applicant. Give me a break, we all know that Jose can and will probably work circles around that guy. And if the other fella with 20 years in the industry can complete the approved course for his private industry certification then he is no less of an employee. The middle guy should not be discredited simply because the unions are attempting to control the labor pool.

The bottom line is their needs to be a pathway for people who don't want to join unions to get, practice, and succeed at a skilled trade.

Why do you assume the Hispanic guy would outwork the union guy? Also why are their no females in your example?
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Because a non union person is trained to do all jobs. Union members are trained to be the best at one job. I wouldn’t get in a bucket and try and be a lineman. Industry differences and why union work cost more money. It takes 3 people to do the job safely and correctly, not one. If others are willing to step up, I’m good with it and stand behind it 110%. But if Jose wants to go from a factory and think he can work next to me for the same pay, nah bro.

Speculation. That is not what this program is about. This is about private industry-approved certification and apprenticeship programs being allowed to provide certified credentials to people regardless of union affiliation.

This is like claiming that a CPA is unqualified to be an accountant because he did not complete his apprenticeship through a union program and instead met the required industry standards of a private certification.

Or a lawyer isn't qualified to be a lawyer because he completed the private requirements of the BAR and not a union lawyer program.
 

Jamie

Senior Member
5,691
177
Ohio
I can tell you for certain that the union painters that have worked for me were among the laziest fuckers I've ever had. the "hourly attitude" only flies on union jobs, not in the real world. I was a Teamster for many years a very long time ago. no thank you. my wife is a member of NEA, OEA, CEA and is making less money and has less benefits today than she did ten years ago because the education unions don't do a goddamned thing for the rank and file members (teachers). organized labor has outgrown its purpose when they only take your money and pretend to work for you and have your best interest at heart. worse still, they fund retarded liberal democrats' campaigns with unbridled largess. that is the money they take from their membership, which has little or no say so in how their dues are spent. Labor unions are their own worst enemy, riddled with corruption and nepotism, much like big government.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Here we are though...I didn’t want to talk union as it’s like talking religion. I should’ve known better.

Come on buddy. Surely you didn't think you'd throw out some pro-union propaganda and it would stand as gospel did you.

Me personally i am all for getting people in to skilled trades and certifying them to make a career out of it. I also don't believe that a union should have sole ownership of the requirements for doing that. I am in no way saying the union/journeyman route is bad, I'm saying they should not be the sole owner of credentials.
 
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