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HVAC- Install

Isaacorps

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Columbus
When you gotta yawn to get your jaw muscles to stop...you know you shouldn't touch that again.
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Jackalope

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I have two more 2-ton units that I'll eventually replace with something similar when they crap out. One does the upstairs and the other does the master bedroom, bath, kitchen side of the house.


Well the upstairs unit crapped out about a month ago with a coil leak. I was waiting to replace it as the housing market collapsed hoping prices would fall, they got somewhat cheaper but not a ton. So I'm going to do this project again.

Putting in a 2 ton 16 seer heat pump system by goodman that meets the new government SEER2 ratings. Not going communicating this time as it's only for about a 650 sq ft upstairs space. Quote from a local HVAC company was $9,200 to replace. All told I'll probably have right at 4k in it.



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Jackalope

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Not a bad markup IMO. I've always considered taking the materials and doubking it a solid way to figure out prices.

For most things like a deck, tile, carpet I would agree. As the number of materials increase (Deck boards / SQft of tile) the labor time to install increases also. HVAC is notorious for screwing people on install costs comparative to the labor required. If you call an HVAC guy out for an issue they'll charge you $100-150 to service fee to show up, then about $80-120 an hour for labor plus parts. Somehow that hourly rate scheme goes out the window for installs and 8 hours of labor comes out to $650 an hour. If we take $150 service fee, 150 in materials, and use the standard labor rate of $100 hour the job would need to take 47 hours to complete on the service call labor rate. :ROFLMAO:
 

giles

Cull buck specialist
Supporting Member
I will agree to a point. Alot more moving parts to this. How many people even know that they would've needed a 2 ton unit and what was involved? Transporting and dealing with this is alot more. Trashing the old unit and a customer wanting it done right now is all worth charging for. Not comparable with showing up to chase a bad sensor IMO. Like the difference in changing a motor or mass air sensor on your rust bucket.
 

Jackalope

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I will agree to a point. Alot more moving parts to this. How many people even know that they would've needed a 2 ton unit and what was involved? Transporting and dealing with this is alot more. Trashing the old unit and a customer wanting it done right now is all worth charging for. Not comparable with showing up to chase a bad sensor IMO. Like the difference in changing a motor or mass air sensor on your rust bucket.

It's simple business, they charge more because they can and people are more likely to finance a new unit than pay cash. Once finance options become involved in the purchase of any tangible good the price gets padded because it's not such a big hit all at once. I see HVAC guys on tiktok mention licensing, transportation, business insurance, tools etc. All of those overhead costs apply no matter if it's a service call or a replacement. Most mechanic shops charge the same hourly shop rate if they're replacing a mass air flow sensor or replacing an engine.

Of all the skilled trades you call to your home the HVAC industry by far has the most shady shisters. Be it not diagnosing the problem and just slapping a bandied on it, or talking a bunch of crap to try to sell a new unit. Most don't know it but the vast majority of HVAC companies are commission based on new unit sales. They're incentivized to sell you a new one. So they slap a bandied on it and take your money knowing they'll be back in a few months. At worst they'll get another service call fee, and at best they will talk up how "it's on it's last leg" to sell you a unit they can charge $650 an hour to install.
 
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Jackalope

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Classic example. I had a guy come out to look at this unit before I decided to replace it. I showed him the unit and went inside. I saw him from my office and he grabbed his gauges and an orange bottle of refrigerant off the truck. Orange is 407c which is a direct replacement for the old R-22 (light green bottle)

I gave him a few minutes and went out to check. He had his gauges hooked up and said the unit was really low so he'll add some refrigerant. I asked if that should take care of the problem. "Yeah we'll get you fixed up". I asked if it had any refrigerant left in the unit and he replied "it was abut half empty." He grabbed his bottle to hook it up to his gauges to fill the unit and I asked if he was going to take out the old refrigerant first. He responded "This is the new stuff that's a direct replacement for the old 22 stuff that's banned". ( I let that slide for a minute) I asked if he located where the leak was. It was at this point he realized and just kind of stood there. I asked if it would do any good to add refrigerant if we didn't fix the leak. He said "what I likes to do is top it off then wait to see if it leaks and how fast." I'll translate that "I'm going to make it blow cold air then collect my money and leave, You'll call me back in a few days, maybe in a month, but I'm not going to actually fix the problem today just take your money" I told him I don't want to add refrigerant to a leaky unit without locating the leak. If he can find the leak and repair it then we'll go with the replacement 407c refrigerant once the R-22 has been recovered.

I didn't say this but here's the rub on 407c, "Direct replacement" for R-22. It's just that, a replacement, not a "top it off and mix it".. They are two different gasses with similar properties. You can put 407c in a unit AFTER you've recovered the remaining r-22. If they mix it, despite being illegal, there would be no way to correctly set the pressures without knowing how much 22 was in the unit, how much 407 was added and even then there wouldn't be a way to pull an accurate subcool on the unit to determine the correct refrigerant pressures. Dude was simply looking to slap a band-aid on it, get his money and off to the next sucker.

I wasn't trying to be an ass, but I wasn't looking to get screwed out of $450+ on a half ass service call either. He went and got his leak detector out of the truck, went upstairs and located the leak in the A-coil, which isn't repairable and would require both the A-coil and outdoor compressor to be replaced. He said I need a new unit. I paid him which was his service call fee and labor rate and off he went.
 
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Jackalope

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The R-22 fairy came and recovered what little remained of the old refrigerant this evening so I should be set to install at my leisure now.
 
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Jackalope

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Demo is done. And yes I have another 2 ton unit that will probably need replaced in a year or so judging by the mean time to failure on the other two. 😂

Pad cleared. I bought 6 inch riser legs for the new unit to get it up out of the dirt. Before @Mike dings me, that tank is technically against code as it should have been set 10 feet from that unit. I'll ask the propane guy on Thursday to move it 😂.

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Indoor air handler removed.

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Next up is running the new lineset between the condenser outside and the air handler. Cutting a piece of plywood for the right size return opening on the new air handler unit, and cutting the plenum to height. Set the indoor and outdoor units and check wiring and breakers against the new units specs.
 

Jackalope

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The outdoor unit is set. I had to move it over and out some to give the appropriate clearances noted in the manual. I'll eventually have to replace that other unit so I factored in a unit of the same size for clearance. Amazing how far they've come in the last 15 years. As efficiency mandates have gone up so has the size of the units to integrate a larger and more efficient condenser coil. I bet that old unit is 7 or 8 seer and the new one is 16.

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Tip. Not needed for this house but if you're doing this in a house close to the road where the unit can be seen. Hook up the electrical water tite line to the unit. If it gets stolen before the installation is complete most insurance will not cover it unless it was attached to the house. Learned that from a guy that worked for my FIL and owned an HVAC business for decades.