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Proposed Fee Increases

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
So we pay more to fund things not even related to fishing or hunting. Did I read that right?
This is just more of the ODOW scare tactics. They are claiming that if they are absorbed by the ODNR then Sportsmen money will be spent on things like picnic areas in Parks or campgrounds. Basically they are claiming that since the ODNR will have access to the DOW budget they are going to pillage it for none Sportsmen related things. What they fail to tell you is this will also allow for the ODNR to put money into the ODOW budget for sportsmen from things such as Campground fees, Pavilion Rentals, boat ramp fees, boat slip rentals, etc.
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,184
157
I'm for the increase... haven't seen anything get better by being cheaper
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,060
223
Ohio
I'm for the increase... haven't seen anything get better by being cheaper
Same here.

Most people, writers included, who say the ODNR is in the right for wanting the DOW to "make cuts" are ignorant to the fact that huge cuts have already been made. They're already doing more with less. The lack of wildlife officers is only one example. Take a look around the state, call your local district offices, and ask them how many employees they have per acre of land managed. Ask them how many research stations and work units have been combined and how many vacant positions are going unfilled. Consider all of this. And consider that the ODNR is also opposed to more land acquisitions. Oh sure.... This is all good for sportsmen and women. Psshhhh.
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,184
157
It's the same arguement they use for education and teachers... wonder how many doctors there would be if they made 40 k a year... sure would be a bunch of dead people I know that...
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
I'm for the increase... haven't seen anything get better by being cheaper


I've never seen a company purposefully offer a lower quality product then try to raise the price to make up for the loss. This is the equivalent of the Division of Parks and Watercraft closing half the lakes to boating, then when their revenue suffers as a result they increase the cost of boat registrations. it's completely ass backwards to how any private company grows their brand and attracts customers.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Same here.

Most people, writers included, who say the ODNR is in the right for wanting the DOW to "make cuts" are ignorant to the fact that huge cuts have already been made. They're already doing more with less. The lack of wildlife officers is only one example. Take a look around the state, call your local district offices, and ask them how many employees they have per acre of land managed. Ask them how many research stations and work units have been combined and how many vacant positions are going unfilled. Consider all of this. And consider that the ODNR is also opposed to more land acquisitions. Oh sure.... This is all good for sportsmen and women. Psshhhh.

Know what I have never seen as a part of these tax levy and fee increase demands, besides the standard excuse of "We already made cuts". A third party independent audit of their finances and expenditures to include compensation packages and staffing. When was the last time any of these taxpayer funded organizations underwent a lean study from a certified private audit company and published the findings as part of their request for additional money? I've never seen one, the reason being is they are wrought with inefficiency and wasteful spending and they know it. I do not doubt they've have made cuts, but the vast majority of the time the cuts they make are the equivalent of a 350 pound person who needs to loose 150 lbs cutting off their foot then complaining it only saved 5lbs. So they cut off their hands. Then they stand in the court of public opinion crying about how they don't have any feet or hands and need to make another 130 pounds in cuts. The ODNR has 12 SixSigma yellow belts and one green belt. The problem is they're internal, nobody ever cuts where it counts when they're internal. And the fact that they have 13 of them should tell you something about their ineptness.
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,184
157
I've never seen a company purposefully offer a lower quality product then try to raise the price to make up for the loss. This is the equivalent of the Division of Parks and Watercraft closing half the lakes to boating, then when their revenue suffers as a result they increase the cost of boat registrations. it's completely ass backwards to how any private company grows their brand and attracts customers.
your equating the government to a private company. That is a completely apples and oranges scenario. I've been on both sides and it was never setup to be that way at any point in time. There are plenty of examples of companies that cheapen up and raise prices. That's exactly what private industry does every day. Every home builder does this exact same thing.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
your equating the government to a private company. That is a completely apples and oranges scenario. I've been on both sides and it was never setup to be that way at any point in time. There are plenty of examples of companies that cheapen up and raise prices. That's exactly what private industry does every day. Every home builder does this exact same thing.

I've also worked in both industries and seen the inefficiency and waste our government is wrought with first hand. There are plenty of examples of companies making cuts to cheapen up that did not impact their brand or product. One of areas is benefit packages. State workers enjoy some of the most lucrative benefits packages in in the Ohio workforce, to include very good medical insurance, retirement packages, and pensions. A massive expenditure that the vast majority of private institutions have trimmed down. Most private companies have gotten rid of pension funds completely upon the recommendation of audit companies. Now the state worker will say that's why they get paid less salary than the average private employee. And while I will not dispute they get paid less, on the other hand private employee must also contend with instability such as layoffs, office closings and other volatile workplace hazards that state employees rarely have to face and as such relates to a higher salary. In the private non union world there is no such thing as tenure, yearly minimum raises, or the mountain of red tape to terminate a non performing employee. I don't say this to debate the morality or cutting employee benefits, I say it to point out that private industry is willing to make the cuts that hurt because they don't have Johnny taxpayer to poor mouth to get more funding.

Until government cost saving measures start to move in line with that of private industry who remains profitable on a voluntary revenue stream; the whole crying about "whoa is me, we've made such horrible cuts, we have nothing left to cut" is just poor mouth lip service.
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,184
157
I've also worked in both industries and seen the inefficiency and waste our government is wrought with first hand. There are plenty of examples of companies making cuts to cheapen up that did not impact their brand or product. One of areas is benefit packages. State workers enjoy some of the most lucrative benefits packages in in the Ohio workforce, to include very good medical insurance, retirement packages, and pensions. A massive expenditure that the vast majority of private institutions have trimmed down. Most private companies have gotten rid of pension funds completely upon the recommendation of audit companies. Now the state worker will say that's why they get paid less salary than the average private employee. And while I will not dispute they get paid less, on the other hand private employee must also contend with instability such as layoffs, office closings and other volatile workplace hazards that state employees rarely have to face and as such relates to a higher salary. In the private non union world there is no such thing as tenure, yearly minimum raises, or the mountain of red tape to terminate a non performing employee. I don't say this to debate the morality or cutting employee benefits, I say it to point out that private industry is willing to make the cuts that hurt because they don't have Johnny taxpayer to poor mouth to get more funding.

Until government cost saving measures start to move in line with that of private industry who remains profitable on a voluntary revenue stream; the whole crying about "whoa is me, we've made such horrible cuts, we have nothing left to cut" is just poor mouth lip service.
Geesh I don't know where to start..let's set the facts straight. They don't have a retirement And and pension. They have a pension only And guess what? It's mandatory by state law that employees contribute, all the repub money saving, screw the government people have all the power to change it. But they sit on their hands. Not the employees fault. Fact is the stock market has out performed pensions by 4 percent each year. So not sure where your coming up with these thoughts. Great medical? Sure maybe but again each agency can change that so what's stopping them? Maybe that's compensation for weak to no raises, no bonuses, golf outings, baseball games and the like. Two friends of mine got laid off from the government last week. How'd that happen? That's what you don't seem to comprehend is these guys aren't selling anything. They are providing you with an opportunity that is your choice to enjoy or don't. Please tell me how paying less for career service provider got better? Fact is your wages and benefits have gone up every year for a decade by somehow these people can't? I can't and won't judge 1000 people by the ignorant actions of 6. The reality is this is a math problem and math, unlike words or emotions, can't be made into a lie. im sure private business don't waste a dime ...
 
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Bigcountry40

Member
4,554
127
I just hope that Ohio doesnt develop a Texas style wildlife management policy, it seems to work for them, but they also have the most land in the lower 48 states. Ohio does not have the land to basically completely privatize
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
I just hope that Ohio doesnt develop a Texas style wildlife management policy, it seems to work for them, but they also have the most land in the lower 48 states. Ohio does not have the land to basically completely privatize

2.5% of Ohio's total land mass is open to publuc hunting. Representing 0.1 acres per person. Or 1 acre per hunting license sold.
 
M

mrex.0

Guest
Geesh I don't know where to start..let's set the facts straight. They don't have a retirement And and pension. They have a pension only And guess what? It's mandatory by state law that employees contribute, all the repub money saving, screw the government people have all the power to change it. But they sit on their hands. Not the employees fault. Fact is the stock market has out performed pensions by 4 percent each year. So not sure where your coming up with these thoughts. Great medical? Sure maybe but again each agency can change that so what's stopping them? Maybe that's compensation for weak to no raises, no bonuses, golf outings, baseball games and the like. Two friends of mine got laid off from the government last week. How'd that happen? That's what you don't seem to comprehend is these guys aren't selling anything. They are providing you with an opportunity that is your choice to enjoy or don't. Please tell me how paying less for career service provider got better? Fact is your wages and benefits have gone up every year for a decade by somehow these people can't? I can't and won't judge 1000 people by the ignorant actions of 6. The reality is this is a math problem and math, unlike words or emotions, can't be made into a lie. im sure private business don't waste a dime ...

Well said Eric!

Mike Budzik's resignation letter shines a light on what's really happening behind the scenes with this controversy...

http://outdoorswithfrischkorn.blogspot.com/2017/06/mike-budzik-resigns-as-sportsmen.html?m=1
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Oh the bed they've made for 8 years that they eventually have to sleep in. For eight years the voice of the Sportsman across this state fell on completely deaf ears at the DOW. They charged ahead with reducing the state's deer population resulting in some of the worst deer harvest seen in a decade-and-a-half. Today however when it come to wanting more money it's all about the sportsmen, don't do this to the sportsmen, the sportsmen deserve better. Makes me wonder if they ever uttered those words to the politicians putting pressure on them who were beheld to Farm Bureau or insurance lobbyist.

Perhaps if the DOW had the same vigor for sportsmen and preserving the deer population rater than decimating it sportsmen might actually be knocking down the door of the governors office. Sportsman might be coming out in droves to support the Dow. However from what I have seen their reputation and credibility with Sportsman appears to be at an all-time low. They spit in the face of the people who pay their bills and they're now surprised they're having trouble getting more money from those people.
 

bigten05

*Supporting Member*
3,675
151
knox county ohio
In a scathing letter to Gov. John Kasich, one of his top advisers on hunting, fishing and conservation issues resigned over the weekend, accusing the state Department of Natural Resources of becoming “silent and indifferent to the issues of importance to the sportsmen and women of Ohio.”

“The truth is that the leadership of ODNR has no regard for the sportsmen and women of Ohio,” Mike Budzik said in his resignation letter. Budzik is a former chief of the department’s Division of Wildlife who had been paid $14,300 per year as a part-time policy liaison for Kasich to the hunting and fishing community.

Routine work is going undone because of a lack of money, including checking hunting and fishing licenses, responding to trespass calls and conducting hunting-safety courses, Budzik said. The state refuses to raise hunting and fishing fees to fund these issues, and it is dragging its feet on buying 60,000 acres from AEP, a deal he calls the “opportunity of a half century.”

“At this moment, the agency is short 25 officers because it cannot afford their salaries, or the cadet classes to recruit them,” Budzik wrote. “Five counties are vacant, having no wildlife officer at all. Issues like this are what has convinced many sportsmen that the administration is trying to financially starve the Wildlife Division to force consolidation of law enforcement.”

The mission of the Division of Wildlife, which began in 1873 to deal with declining fish populations in lakes and streams, has grown over the decades to oversee hundred of species of wild animals and manage endangered species in Ohio. Budzik favors raising fishing and hunting fees to fund those operations, but department Director James Zehringer recently said he opposes any fee increase for in-state hunting and fishing licenses, citing a decline in hunting and fishing.

“After nearly six years leading the agency, the first time the director speaks about one of our top concerns as a community is to use it as a tool to oppose a long-overdue increase in fees,” Budzik wrote.

Budzik’s letter also accused department officials of referring to members of national conservation organizations such as Ducks Unlimited as “cult members.”

“These people are passionate about what they believe and know,” Budzik wrote. “They should be shown some respect, not branded as members of some conservation ‘cult.’”

Budzik was a policy staff employee and did not receive health insurance. He was hired in 2013 and was paid $35 an hour and given a state car for travel.

Natural Resources spokeswoman Bethany McCorkle said that Budzik has been an advocate for Ohio wildlife conservation, and Zehringer appreciates his service.

Although five counties have no wildlife officer, it is not because of a lack of money but to better prioritize spending, McCorkle said. Rumors that the Wildlife Division is being eliminated and its employees folded into the department are false, she said.

Kasich spokeswoman Emmalee Kalmbach said of Budzik: “The governor appreciates his service and wishes him well.”

“Mike Budzik has dedicated his entire life to improving and advancing wildlife-conservation efforts in Ohio,” Evan Heusinkveld, president and CEO of Sportsmen’s Alliance, said in a statement Wednesday. “Mike has been one of the most honest, and dedicated, public servants that I have ever known.

“We share Mike’s deep concern about the funding crisis of the Division of Wildlife,” Heusinkveld said, and the need to prioritize the AEP land purchase.

Negotiations between the state and AEP over the purchase of the land — mostly reclaimed strip mines in Morgan, Muskingum, Noble and Guernsey counties — reportedly stalled earlier this year. The utility has allowed hunting and fishing on the land for five decades, Budzik said, but that could change if AEP sells it to private investors rather than the state. Also, the Buckeye Trail runs through the land, he said in an interview.

“I’m asking you to personally get involved with the AEP opportunity,” Budzik wrote to Kasich. “The loss of access to these lands would be a terrible blow to outdoor recreation in Ohio. This issue requires your leadership.”

Talks with AEP are ongoing and a top priority, McCorkle said.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
just seen that on the columbus dispatch. didnt see it was already posted in the link above sorry about that
No need to apologize. I though the article you posted was more balanced and not obviously one sided like the previous one. One thing is for sure, no matter which way this goes there will be some leadership changes at the DOW and perhaps the DNR. It appears as though the governor and zehringer are on the same page, such insolence by those below him will likely not go unanswered after the smoke clears.