Open house meet-greet

[Jackalope]

I honestly don't see that happening. Comparing PA to Ohio is like apples to oranges. PA hunters were brought up with the mindset that "any buck is a good buck...," just like the hunters in Michigan. Therefore the need for antler restrictions in PA. In the long run, Ohio may end up with less deer... But I don't think the quality of our bucks will suffer.

Who knows really... One could say quality will not suffer.. But how about Quantity?

Less does = less bucks..
Less bucks + Same # of hunters = More Bucks not reaching maturity.

I'm not saying this is an indication of anything as I don't have the DNRs recent Age Studies in front of me.. But this can't be positive..

2009-2010 and 2010 -2011 By Weapon and Sex.

Crossbow Does 27,500 / 24,458 -11%
Crossbow Bucks 21,565 / 19665 -9%

Vertical Does 25,652 / 24,615 -5%
Vertical Bucks 16,829 / 16,274 -4%

Shotgun W Bonus. Does 89,327 / 85,935 -4%
Shotgun W Bonus. Bucks 44,803 / 41,222 -8%

Muzzy Doe 19,160 / 13,091 -32%
Muzzy Buck 5,846 / 4,284 -27%

 

[Mountaineer]

Jbrown,,

Thats because you guys have grown up with a sustainable herd. What happens when the herd is dramtically reduced? How will bucks reach maturity when hunters will face difficult conditions? The more dire the conditions the less picky hunters become. It gets to the point of just getting a deer makes a hunter content. Thats the PA mentality..Hunters are just happy to see a legal antlered buck...If it has a 3 points to a side it gets dropped in its tracks. Most bucks with 3 points to a side are 1.5 year olds. What is antler restrictions saving? So...The PA herd has been drastically reduced..AR saves very little..and what you have is an Unsustainable herd and alot of unhappy hunters.

Antlered Restrictions in PA was instituted along with Herd Reduction. The Game Commision sold the notion that antlered restrictions will produce older deer. I never bought into that notion because antler points does not indicate age or maturity to me. I think antler restrictions is a ridiculous way to manage bucks to reach maturity.

 

[jagermeister]

Who knows really... One could say quality will not suffer.. But how about Quantity?

Less does = less bucks..
Less bucks + Same # of hunters = More Bucks not reaching maturity.

I'm not saying this is an indication of anything as I don't have the DNRs recent Age Studies in front of me.. But this can't be positive..

2009-2010 and 2010 -2011 By Weapon and Sex.

Crossbow Does 27,500 / 24,458 -11%
Crossbow Bucks 21,565 / 19665 -9%

Vertical Does 25,652 / 24,615 -5%
Vertical Bucks 16,829 / 16,274 -4%

Shotgun W Bonus. Does 89,327 / 85,935 -4%
Shotgun W Bonus. Bucks 44,803 / 41,222 -8%

Muzzy Doe 19,160 / 13,091 -32%
Muzzy Buck 5,846 / 4,284 -27%

There a shit ton of deer hunters in Ohio that have absolutely no problem with letting young or small bucks walk. I don't think they will change that mindset if the herd is diminished. If they're ok with eating tag soup now, why would it not be ok then? Now, if the population gets so low that doe tags are eliminated, then yea I'd say there'd be a good probability of buck quality going downhill.

 

[Huckleberry Finn]

There a shit ton of deer hunters in Ohio that have absolutely no problem with letting young or small bucks walk. I don't think they will change that mindset if the herd is diminished. If they're ok with eating tag soup now, why would it not be ok then? Now, if the population gets so low that doe tags are eliminated, then yea I'd say there'd be a good probability of buck quality going downhill.

Venison is venison...

 

[DJK Frank 16]

Venison is venison...

Yep if the ability to harvest a doe drops, you can bet that guys will fill their freezer one way or another. As long as guys can stick a doe in the freezer, they don't mind letting smaller bucks walk.

 

[jagermeister]

Venison is venison...

Hence, the last sentence...

There a shit ton of deer hunters in Ohio that have absolutely no problem with letting young or small bucks walk. I don't think they will change that mindset if the herd is diminished. If they're ok with eating tag soup now, why would it not be ok then? Now, if the population gets so low that doe tags are eliminated, then yea I'd say there'd be a good probability of buck quality going downhill.

 

[Mountaineer]

Joe is right..

Less Does = less Bucks. The numbers of hunters wont drop..so..what happens? A slow erosion of Quality. Trust me..it will happen..it may take a few years..but it will happen.

In order for a buck to reach 150"'s..He will have to survive at least 4 seasons of being chased by hunters. If conditions become dire, what will the chances of that buck surviving his years of being a basket 8 point..and then a 120" Ten point and then 135" and finally a 150"er...the odds will be stacked way against him. In dire conditions i doubt he will make it past the 2.5 year old 120''er.

 

[mrex]

Joe is right..

Less Does = less Bucks. The numbers of hunters wont drop..so..what happens? A slow erosion of Quality. Trust me..it will happen..it may take a few years..but it will happen.

In order for a buck to reach 150"'s..He will have to survive at least 4 seasons of being chased by hunters. If conditions become dire, what will the chances of that buck surviving his years of being a basket 8 point..and then a 120" Ten point and then 135" and finally a 150"er...the odds will be stacked way against him. In dire conditions i doubt he will make it past the 2.5 year old 120''er.

wrong

 

[jagermeister]

Joe is right..

Less Does = less Bucks. The numbers of hunters wont drop..so..what happens? A slow erosion of Quality. Trust me..it will happen..it may take a few years..but it will happen.

In order for a buck to reach 150"'s..He will have to survive at least 4 seasons of being chased by hunters. If conditions become dire, what will the chances of that buck surviving his years of being a basket 8 point..and then a 120" Ten point and then 135" and finally a 150"er...the odds will be stacked way against him. In dire conditions i doubt he will make it past the 2.5 year old 120''er.

Actually, the number of hunters may very well drop. We've already seen a decrease in tag sales over the past couple years. Less and less youths are taking to the woods each year as well. Reduce the deer population enough, and maybe the hunter population will fall off to match. Less deer, less hunters, still plenty of good bucks.

 

[jagermeister]

wrong

Lol... you were too quick, Mike.

 

[Mountaineer]

The hunter numbers will slowly drop as the quality of hunting diminishes.

Mike..just imagine if your little hunting ranch was open to the public? Would the quality remain? I doubt it. The end result would be a reduction in "friends" too

 

[Jackalope]

There a shit ton of deer hunters in Ohio that have absolutely no problem with letting young or small bucks walk. I don't think they will change that mindset if the herd is diminished. If they're ok with eating tag soup now, why would it not be ok then? Now, if the population gets so low that doe tags are eliminated, then yea I'd say there'd be a good probability of buck quality going downhill.

I'm not so sure about that man.. I know 10x more people who will shoot small bucks than I do those that will let them walk. I think the only thing that saves us is those people have Plenty of dinks to shoot.

 

[Tree Monkey]

LOL...Joe

I read that too fast and I saw "those people have plenty of drinks before they shoot"

 

[Schu72]

Actually, the number of hunters may very well drop. We've already seen a decrease in tag sales over the past couple years. Less and less youths are taking to the woods each year as well. Reduce the deer population enough, and maybe the hunter population will fall off to match. Less deer, less hunters, still plenty of good bucks.

I'm not so sure about that man.. I know 10x more people who will shoot small bucks than I do those that will let them walk. I think the only thing that saves us is those people have Plenty of dinks to shoot.

It's all part of the retro movement to get us back to 1980.:smiley_depressive:

 

[Jackalope]

Actually, the number of hunters may very well drop. We've already seen a decrease in tag sales over the past couple years. Less and less youths are taking to the woods each year as well. Reduce the deer population enough, and maybe the hunter population will fall off to match. Less deer, less hunters, still plenty of good bucks.

I need to revisit these numbers.. But last i checked a couple years ago we we're losing resident hunters, but gaining NR hunters at double the loss rate for residents.

And tag sales are also interesting..

In 03-04 we sold 515,928 permits and harvested 197,790 deer for a success rate of 38%
In 10-11 we sold 609,417 permits and harvested 239,475 deer for a success rate of 39%

Almost 100,00 more permits but the success rate stayed the same... We see all they years maintain a 38%-41% success rate no matter the number of permits sold..

 

[Mountaineer]

Joe Is right again.....Right now there are enough dinks to sustain everyone. So..What happens when dink numbers drop off dramitically? If there are 10 dinks per sq. mile now and thats sustains everyone what happens when there are only 5 dinks per sq. mile? Whats going to happen? The dynamics will drastically change.

 

[jagermeister]

I need to revisit these numbers.. But last i checked a couple years ago we we're losing resident hunters, but gaining NR hunters at double the loss rate for residents.

And tag sales are also interesting..

In 03-04 we sold 515,928 permits and harvested 197,790 deer for a success rate of 38%
In 10-11 we sold 609,417 permits and harvested 239,475 deer for a success rate of 39%

Almost 100,00 more permits but the success rate stayed the same... We see all they years maintain a 38%-41% success rate no matter the number of permits sold..

What does the success rate have to do with hunter numbers? And don't you think the NR tag sales will decrease as the deer population decreases?

 

[RedCloud]

Here is what I think will happen.

1) The resident tag numbers will drop as the deer numbers drop
2) The NR licenses will remain the same for a couple years
3) NR license sales will start to drop because they are sick of seeing leaves hit the ground just like we did 3 years earlier.
4) Very few deer left over the 2.5 year old range and even fewer fawns being born each year.

According to the QDMA the older doe 4.5+ years old are the ones to drop multiple fawns while the younger doe will only drop a single fawn with a higer mortality rate for those fawns.

Should be some fun hunting...er..I mean leaf watching in about 4 years statewide unless you go to a city park or urban nieghborhoods where you can only watch them.

 

[hickslawns]

Antler restrictions are not looked upon nicely in Ohio. This is according to the man I spoke with at the open house. To sum up the argument (he and I actually agreed here), you add an antler restriction and you start removing young deer with good potential, yet you have to pass on some older deer that still don't meet the antler restriction requirements. Essentially, you are removing the bucks from the better gene pools and leaving some crappy genetics bucks that might be 2.5-3.5yrs old but still only 6 point deer. Isn't it 4 per side?

I would anticipate some drop in resident tag sales as well. Percent of tags filled sounds like it will be fairly consistent. Redcloud summed it up well. I too believe the NR sales will slow but probably not right away. Might take a few years.

 

[LonewolfNopack]

wrong

So are you saying Tonk cares more about reducing the states deer herd than hunter participation numbers dropping?? If so that doesn't seem quite right to me. I do not know exactly what the motive to his madness is, but it must be something that he just can not pass up. I would say whatever it is is coming well above his position standing and he is just the one made out to be in the hot seat.

It would make so much more since to me to just drop the bag limits, decrease the length of both gun and bow season.... and encourage more people to hunt. That way we could insure our hunting heritage is around for many more years and at the same time enjoy a healthy deer population for everyone, not just a few. You know, kind of like having your cake and eating it too. Is that weird to want to have your cake and eat it too?? Maybe I am just weird.

As it stands now, the few who are fortunate enough to have large private tracts of well managed land will continue to see more and more deer...while the rest of us dumb and uneducated hunters will see fewer and fewer. As most things in life unfortunately, those that are not affected by something tend to care very little about the problem, and they are usually the ones with the most power.