Iowa deer population reduced by 30 percent.. IDNR Backs off..

Jackalope · Feb 28, 2012

JBrown said:
That's exactly what Iowa DNR has done... They didn't decide to pedal back until AFTER their population goals have been met. From what I can tell, Ohio is doing the exact same thing. Ohio has its own population goals, and according to our DNR, we haven't reached those numbers yet. Whether or not our numbers are accurate or not, that's what's questionable here. I know what Lundy is saying... It seems to me that Iowa isn't doing much different than Ohio to me... except their survey methodology seems to be much more proactive.

I like the fact that Iowa has the spring spotlighting routes. Seems to me like that would be an easy survey for our WO's to conduct. Hell, back in '04 or 05, I helped the Seneca County WO conduct his yearly Dove surveys... which were essentially the same thing... drive a specific route, count the birds, and report your findings. I know dove's are a federal migratory bird, so there's probably federal funding for that, but come-the-frick-on!... If they can drive around counting doves, SURELY they can conduct spotlighting surveys of our deer herd!

You're missing the point bub.. It's not the point that Iowa did it to.. It's HOW they arrived, the care they took, the precision, the transparency, and the management... I don't live or hunt there so I can't speak as to if they screwed up or not when it comes to hunting..

Here is what I gather from Iowa..

They have 9 management zones..
They have regulated max doe kills on a county level with "Quotas"..
They have an early antlerless only season.. Nov 25-27.... But Antlerless can be used in other early seasons.
Antlerless tags are sold for that county only.. Are only valid on private land.. They are sold first come first serve until the quota number for said county is sold..
If the quote was not reached in that county. A January season is opened.. Tags are again sold for that season and county only.. Public is now included, and center fire is allowed in some counties.

Once season is over... The IDNR drives around with a spotlight and counts LIVE deer. They also do counts from a plane.. IN EVERY COUNTY.. And then Take hunter surveys..
This data is then used to set the quota for next season..
They not only manage the number allowed to be killed per county, but also manage opportunity.

Here is what we get from the ODNR....

Here is a bunch of tags valid for this period of time in any of the 3 zones you want.... County level.. pfffttt
Just go kill shit...
Record harvest.. This must mean there is more deer. Still 750,000
Next year
Record harvest.. This must mean there is more deer. Still 750,000
Next year
Record harvest.. This must mean there is more deer. Still 750,000
Next year
-4.54%.... Oh that decline is due to weather Still 750,000
Next year
-5.20% Oh that decline is due to mast. Still 750,000
I haven't heard Boo about lower numbers.
Next year
-8.28%... Oh that decline is due to lack of hunter determination Still 750,000.
We have record deer and need to kill more!!!! We're not releasing population numbers anymore.. Still _ _ _ , _ _ _

What Ohio does not take into regard is hunter density, hunter success rates, Property access percentage, or the initial LIVE population in that county........ Their "Just kill Does" plan has led to a situation where County A may have a 20% reduction, but County B two counties away may be seeing 60+% reduction... This is the problem when you make a goal of say 30% and have no way to manage, verify, or report your success or failure.. They are not managing the harvest and are thus not managing the population adequately.. They have devastated deer populations in vast areas while some seem to be OK... This is because what it takes to reduce a population in County A may devastate a population in county B... This is the problem when managing by the dead numbers, not knowing the live numbers, and not accounting for variables, in very large zones..

That.. Is what this thread is about..... The utter FAILURE of our ODNR to not only implement a plan, but their deceptive nature of implementing whatever it is you want to call this fuck up.. ... Where as appears the IDNR has completed their goal with a managed and limited impact and transparency of information.. The Hunters of Iowa can't come back and say they were duped. It was presented to them and they had ample time to voice their concerns and attempt to change it.... Where as here in ohio not only have they not been transparent, they have been deceptive, hidden, combative, and dishonest about the whole thing.... And on top of all that, they royally fucked it up..

Our reduction management efforts compared to Iowas is the difference between an Ivy League education, and a short bus retard with helmet and crayons.

jagermeister · Feb 28, 2012

Jackalope said:
You're missing the point bub.. It's not that they got there.. It's HOW, effectively and precisely..

Here is what I gather from Iowa..

They have 9 management zones..
They have regulated max doe kills in every county on a county level with "Quotas".. Some counties are zero, some counties are higher.
They have an early antlerless only season.. Nov 25-27.... But Antlerless
Antlerless tags are sold for that county only.. Are only valid on private land.. They are sold first come first serve until the quota number for said county is sold..
If the quote was not reached in that county. A January season is opened.. Tags are again sold for that season and county only.. Public is now included, and center fire is allowed in some counties.

Once season is over... The IDNR drives around with a spotlight and counts LIVE deer. They also do counts from a plane.. IN EVERY COUNTY.. And then Take hunter surveys..
This data is then used to set the quota for next season..
They not only manage the number allowed to be killed per county, but also manage opportunity.

Here is what we get from the ODNR....

Here is a bunch of tags valid for this period of time in every zone you want....
Just go kill shit...

What Ohio does not take into regard is hunter density, hunter success rates, Property access percentage, or the initial LIVE population in that county........ Their "Just kill Does" plan has led to a situation where County A may have a 20% reduction, but County B two counties away may be seeing 60+% reduction... This is the problem when you make a goal of say 30% and have no way to manage, verify, or report your success or failure.. They are not managing the harvest and are thus not managing the population adequately.. They have devastated deer populations in most areas while others seem to be OK... This is because what it takes to reduce a population in County A may devastate a population in county B... This is the problem when managing by the dead numbers, not knowing the live numbers, and not accounting for variables..

That.. Is what this thread is about..... The utter FAILURE of our ODNR to not only implement a plan, but their deceptive nature of implementing whatever it is you want to call this fuck up.. ... Where as appears the IDNR has completed their goal with a managed and limited impact and transparency of information.. The Hunters of Iowa can't come back and say they were duped. It was presented to them and they had ample time to voice their concerns and attempt to change it.... Where as here in ohio not only have they not been transparent, they have been deceptive, hidden, combative, and dishonest about the whole thing.... And on top of all that they royally fucked it up..

Our reduction management efforts compared to Iowas is the difference between an Ivy League education, and a short bus retard with helmet and crayons.

Although I don't always agree with what you say, Joe, there's no question that you are a funny fugger.

And BTW, I do understand what you're saying here. It's obvious that what was once "good enough" for Ohio's deer management plan is no longer... These other states are proving that.

Jackalope · Feb 28, 2012

JBrown said:
Although I don't always agree with what you say, Joe, there's no question that you are a funny fugger.

And BTW, I do understand what you're saying here. It's obvious that what was once "good enough" for Ohio's deer management plan is no longer... These other states are proving that.

I try... lol. Ohio is the proverbial kid who thought it better to ask forgiveness than permission... They thought they could do it under the covers and all would be well.. What they didn't count on was hunters who are largely unorganized and uninformed eventually coming together to fight them...But they probably thought that would happen if they we're open and honest like Iowa was.. The best policy is to ignore the small grumbling, pretend like nothing is happening, and hope they don't figure it out, and if they do hope they don't voice it.... They elected to treat us like mushrooms, keep us in the dark and feed us bullshit.. Which might not have been so bad if they didn't royally screw up and make it so noticeable..

Redhunter1012 · Feb 28, 2012

I agree completely with you Joe. Where I'm lost is Deer Season kinda pays the bills for our DNR doesn't it? So why is Tonk fuggin everything up? Kind of biting the hand that feeds you type of shit here. I know the Farm Bureau and Insurance companies are behind it somewhat. Do they contribute money to our Wildlife division? What's the incentive to give in to them and ignore us?

Jackalope · Feb 28, 2012

Redhunter1012 said:
I agree completely with you Joe. Where I'm lost is Deer Season kinda pays the bills for our DNR doesn't it? So why is Tonk fuggin everything up? Kind of biting the hand that feeds you type of shit here. I know the Farm Bureau and Insurance companies are behind it somewhat. Do they contribute money to our Wildlife division%3ke it look good on paper... Fight them and they will replace him with someone who will... The crap rolls down hill... If he does play along they give him many awards and atta-boys...

What they didn't think about was the shit rolling back uphill.. It's the poor biologist that's going to be stuck in the middle... But then again that's a hazard of the job.. Just as they we're worried about the uppers burning them if they didn't cooperate, they should have worried about the 500,000 hunters too when they find out they're getting screwed to protect the profits of insurance companies.... I firmly believe our biologists have been looking up a cliff at the dnr while higher ups demanded politically influenced demands.. And they're still looking up that cliff, except now the river is starting to rise... Before they only had one problem, the uppers said cooperate of be replaced with someone who will.... However, with the rising river they have to start climbing that cliff or start drowning.. Not a position I would want to be in.. But I don't feel bad for them either.. It's just business. A business the choose to be a part of..

Jackalope · Feb 28, 2012

Redhunter1012 said:
I agree completely with you Joe. Where I'm lost is Deer Season kinda pays the bills for our DNR doesn't it? So why is Tonk fuggin everything up? Kind of biting the hand that feeds you type of shit here. I know the Farm Bureau and Insurance companies are behind it somewhat. Do they contribute money to our Wildlife division? What's the incentive to give in to them and ignore us?

In 1994 the cost of deer vehicle collisions in Ohio cost insurance companies about 52 million annually.. And at the time hunters we're only giving the DNR about 15 million in license and tag revenue.. As a result in 1995 the DNR started a deer reduction effort.. They're simply doing the same thing again.. This is the one MREX fought..

To put that in perspective the entire DNR only cost 59 million to run last year.. Hunters gave the DNR 10.88 million in Hunting Licenses and 10.5 million in deer tags... So hunters gave the DNR 21.33 million.... And insurance companies spent an estimated 72 million for DVAs in Ohio..

Basically the DNR costs 59 million to run..... Insurance companies spend 72 mill a year on DVAs alone... And hunters only contribute 21 mill in sales to the DNR... BUTwe spend almost 900 million a year in ohio on hunting to private business. Hunting and Fishing in Ohio is almost a 2 BILLION dollar industry...

Insurance companies don't like spending 72 million a year of their "hard earned" profits.. So they hire lobbyists.. The lobbyists pressure state politicians, congressmen, the governor etc.. They offer support, campaign contributions etc in return for favors.. The governor appoints the director of the DNR, governors have also appointed many of the Wildlife counsel.

Director of the DNR goes to the wildlife council says here is what we want.. Wildlife counsel tell biologist here is what we want.. Biologist beng the first non governor appointed person has two options.... Give them what they want and make it look good on paper... Fight them and they will replace him with someone who will... The crap rolls down hill... If he does play along they give him many awards and atta-boys...

What they didn't think about was the shit rolling back uphill.. It's the poor biologist that's going to be stuck in the middle... But then again that's a hazard of the job.. Just as they we're worried about the uppers burning them if they didn't cooperate, they should have worried about the 500,000 hunters too when they find out they're getting screwed to protect the profits of insurance companies.... I firmly believe our biologists have been looking up a cliff at the dnr while higher ups demanded politically influenced demands.. And they're still looking up that cliff, except now the river is starting to rise... Before they only had one problem, the uppers said cooperate of be replaced with someone who will.... However, with the rising river they have to start climbing that cliff or start drowning.. Not a position I would want to be in.. But I don't feel bad for them either.. It's just business. A business the choose to be a part of..

Redhunter1012 · Feb 28, 2012

So we need to be able to vote in the head of the DNR then? I Know, I know, that'll never happen:smiley_chinrub:

Jackalope · Feb 28, 2012

Redhunter1012 said:
So we need to be able to vote in the head of the DNR then? I Know, I know, that'll never happen:smiley_chinrub:

Nah.. He was put there by the governor to push the whole Natural Gas and Oil thing.. Which is not great in and of itself as I have been told he's not a huge fan of deer.

Hunters need to have a organized voice and be represented at a wildlife counsel or Biologist level. To achieve that, there has to be a reason the DOW listens to us besides just being nice. It doesn't matter how much a dog barks if he doesn't have teeth. And it doesn't matter how much the DOW smiles and pretends to listen, they only do what they're forced to do.. Be it by insurance lobbyists, or hunters.. The teeth is organizing the most hunters we can.. I don't think it will be too hard.. There are plenty of mad people out there.. We just need to inform them and point them in the right direction.. From there I think it will spread, self evolve, and take care of itself, almost like perpetual motion.. I can already see it starting to happen outside the walls of TOO.. And I'm sure they can too.

moundhill · Feb 28, 2012

Jackalope said:
Our reduction management efforts compared to Iowas is the difference between an Ivy League education, and a short bus retard with helmet and crayons.

Best thing I heard all day!

Schu72 · Feb 28, 2012

Jackalope said:
Nah.. He was put there by the governor to push the whole Natural Gas and Oil thing.. Which is not great in and of itself as I have been told he's not a huge fan of deer.

Hunters need to have a organized voice and be represented at a wildlife counsel or Biologist level. To achieve that, there has to be a reason the DOW listens to us besides just being nice. It doesn't matter how much a dog barks if he doesn't have teeth. And it doesn't matter how much the DOW smiles and pretends to listen, they only do what they're forced to do.. Be it by insurance lobbyists, or hunters.. The teeth is organizing the most hunters we can.. I don't think it will be too hard.. There are plenty of mad people out there.. We just need to inform them and point them in the right direction.. From there I think it will spread, self evolve, and take care of itself, almost like perpetual motion.. I can already see it starting to happen outside the walls of TOO.. And I'm sure they can too.

The upset hunters are starting to multiply, but I'm not seeing any type of organizing. This weekends open houses should be somewhat telling. My guess is a small bump in attnedance.:smiley_depressive:

finelyshedded · Feb 28, 2012

Originally Posted by Jackalope
Our reduction management efforts compared to Iowas is the difference between an Ivy League education, and a short bus retard with helmet and crayons.
Best thing I heard all day!

X2 that's some funny stuff Jack!

Jackalope · Feb 28, 2012

Schu72 said:
The upset hunters are starting to multiply, but I'm not seeing any type of organizing. This weekends open houses should be somewhat telling. My guess is a small bump in attnedance.:smiley_depressive:

All things in time brother. All things in time

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Iowa deer population reduced by 30 percent.. IDNR Backs off..

Jackalope

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jagermeister

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Jackalope

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Redhunter1012

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Jackalope

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Jackalope

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Redhunter1012

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Jackalope

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moundhill

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Schu72

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finelyshedded

You know what!!!

Jackalope

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