Welcome to TheOhioOutdoors
Wanting to join the rest of our members? Login or sign up today!
Login / Join

Down

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,864
113
Streetsboro
I agree that it is at least a contributing factor. I told Joe the very same thing on the phone the other night. It is the ugly truth. I would venture to guess there is probably as high as a 50 percent loss in archery hunting. Granted, many of the un-recovered do not die, but many do! This is one reason I wanted the OBA to accept crossbows several years ago. The thought being to build the OBA into an organization actually strong enough to lobby for mandatory bowhunter ed in Ohio. I was very lucky as a bow to have excellent mentors, many aren't so lucky. I've lost deer, and I know what I'm doing. I hate to think how many are lost by those not so fortunate to have good guidance when getting started!

Are you saying that you think that 50% of the deer shot with archery equipment are not recovered? I find that shocking. I read multiple forums and I know it happends, but I would truly be shocked if it was that high. Just curious what you think the gun loss would be? Boom....Boom...boom......boom...booom....boom.....boommm. Are all of those really misses? And don't get me wrong I enjoy the hell out of gun hunting, but I have seen too much to think gun hunters don't wound more than any other group.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
I will agree with you to some extent on this Joe, but only after you kill a quality buck several years in a row.......Kill 8 or 10 wallhangers in the next dozen years and then get back to me.


No doubt in my mind that I could as long as this property maintains it's deer attraction... We will see what's left after deer season.. But I know of 5 deer that are over 140 today on this property. And a couple that may be that size next year... The neighboring properties have their fair share of slob deer as well..... The hunting pressure is heavy, but hunted wrong.. On their neighboring property which i have permission on 4 guys sat in the same 10 acre woods everyday of gun.. All day... But i bet they we're staring at leaves, as the deer had moved a month prior. No doubt in my mind buddy that I could stick a 140+ deer on that property next year...
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,184
157
there is a whole nother mix in here that we are forgetting...some people hunt 15 acres while others get on 500+.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Are you saying that you think that 50% of the deer shot with archery equipment are not recovered? I find that shocking. I read multiple forums and I know it happends, but I would truly be shocked if it was that high. Just curious what you think the gun loss would be? Boom....Boom...boom......boom...booom....boom.....boommm. Are all of those really misses? And don't get me wrong I enjoy the hell out of gun hunting, but I have seen too much to think gun hunters don't wound more than any other group.


I believe it's that high... You have to remember.. We here on boards like these are the cream of the crop man.. We took a hobby and turned it into a craft.. And we still occasionally wound one.... I know one guy who didn't recover 6 deer last year, and didn't find a single one.. Didn't get a one to the check station. I know another two guys that lost 3 deer. And i'm willing to bet archery/shotgun wound rates are very similar..
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
48,879
274
Appalachia
Are you saying that you think that 50% of the deer shot with archery equipment are not recovered? I find that shocking. I read multiple forums and I know it happends, but I would truly be shocked if it was that high. Just curious what you think the gun loss would be? Boom....Boom...boom......boom...booom....boom.....boommm. Are all of those really misses? And don't get me wrong I enjoy the hell out of gun hunting, but I have seen too much to think gun hunters don't wound more than any other group.

A few things to consider Scott...

Yes, reading a lot of forums gives you a sample of the population, but it is a small one. Not to mention not everyone is going to fess up to losing a deer on a public forum. Relying on that sample to base a number on is far from accurate IMO.

Another thing is that bowhunters have 135 days to wound deer, as opposed to 15 days (with youth) for gun hunters to wound deer. You can factor in hunter participation between the two season, but bowhunters have significantly more time to wound deer. I think if you had the numbers in front of you and did the comparison, you'd be shocked at the number of deer wounded in the span of 135 days by bowhunters...
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,864
113
Streetsboro
I believe it's that high... You have to remember.. We here on boards like these are the cream of the crop man.. We took a hobby and turned it into a craft.. And we still occasionally wound one.... I know one guy who didn't recover 6 deer last year, and didn't find a single one.. Didn't get a one to the check station. I know another two guys that lost 3 deer. And i'm willing to bet archery/shotgun wound rates are very similar..

Your thoughts on gun loss?
 

Schu72

Well-Known Member
3,864
113
Streetsboro
A few things to consider Scott...

Yes, reading a lot of forums gives you a sample of the population, but it is a small one. Not to mention not everyone is going to fess up to losing a deer on a public forum. Relying on that sample to base a number on is far from accurate IMO.

Another thing is that bowhunters have 135 days to wound deer, as opposed to 15 days (with youth) for gun hunters to wound deer. You can factor in hunter participation between the two season, but bowhunters have significantly more time to wound deer. I think if you had the numbers in front of you and did the comparison, you'd be shocked at the number of deer wounded in the span of 135 days by bowhunters...

Agreed, but what about the guys at wally world buying 15 boxes of slugs? How many of those deer are hit during drives that are never found or even looked for?
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
Your thoughts on gun loss?


Hard to say. More shotgun hunters are out driving deer and shooting at running deer. But IMO bow hunters have more un pressured opportunity leading to more shots. but the bow is less effective than the gun in killing power... Hard to say man.. but i would put the number between 30-50% loss per deer checked for both groups..
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
48,879
274
Appalachia
Agreed, but what about the guys at wally world buying 15 boxes of slugs? How many of those deer are hit during drives that are never found or even looked for?

I have no doubts that is happens and I don't believe anyone is arguing that fact. However, there is significantly less time for that activity to happen. In addition to that, I have seen a ton of deer hit with a slug that would not be a kill shot with an arrow, but kills them with a slug. Gun hunting can be ugly, no doubt about it. And if it does account for the other 50% of wounded deer that die, then it happens at an alarming rate over those 15 days. Say there are 20,000 deer wounded each season and it is equally accountable to bowhunters and gun hunters alike. (I have no idea if that number is high, low, or close. Just a number for arguments sake.) Then bowhunters wounded deer at the rate of 75 deer per day state wide over the course of the season. Gun hunters would have wounded deer at the rate of 667 deer per day!!! Accounting for half the kill in 10% of the time is stunning in itself. For me, it makes it easy to buy that the other half of all wounded deer that die statewide can be contributed to a group of hunters with 9 times the opportunities to wound deer...
 

Gern186

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
10,171
201
NW Ohio Tundra
A few things to consider Scott...

Yes, reading a lot of forums gives you a sample of the population, but it is a small one. Not to mention not everyone is going to fess up to losing a deer on a public forum. Relying on that sample to base a number on is far from accurate IMO.

Another thing is that bowhunters have 135 days to wound deer, as opposed to 15 days (with youth) for gun hunters to wound deer. You can factor in hunter participation between the two season, but bowhunters have significantly more time to wound deer. I think if you had the numbers in front of you and did the comparison, you'd be shocked at the number of deer wounded in the span of 135 days by bowhunters...

There has always been issues of wounding loss from bow and gun hunters no matter what the deer population was. I whole heartedly agree that the deer population is decreasing and there are less deer in certain places than others.....Its like the stock market, there will certainly be times of highs and lows. Right now some of you are witnessing a point of lows. Others, not so much. Yes I do think some of the harvest zones are out of touch with reality......I went to an ODNR open house 2 years in a row in Findlay Ohio along with a few other guys and voiced my opinions......what more can I do? I speak openly to as many people I can in my area about overharvesting of does and the future effects from it. Can you guys do the same, yes you can and I know that you are. We as hunters can only control the deer that we shoot as individuals. If you are not happy about the population in your area, then don't take antlerless deer out of it. If you can manage getting away to a more populated area to hunt deer, then do it.

I have little faith in my local DNR agent/officer. There have been more deer shot out of trucks around here than any of you can imagine.....yet the individuals get away with it year in and year out. That is one of the main reasons I think we are wasting our time worrying about what Tonk and the gang are trying to do. We can only control what we do as individuals.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
48,879
274
Appalachia
If you are not happy about the population in your area, then don't take antlerless deer out of it. If you can manage getting away to a more populated area to hunt deer, then do it.

I am Chad. That is just one more part of the equation. But here is what I have to do in order to find a decent amount of deer so I feel comfortable killing a doe: take the hunt out of it. I can't hunt my best places and kill 2-3 does a year now. When I decide to kill a doe, it is just that... an effort to kill. No hunting about it. Grab the gun, head to an "urbanish" area and kill a doe. I'd like to feel comfortable killing does on our 76 acre farm again. Or my uncles 80 acres. But for the time being, they are off limits. At this point, I am going to have to stop having people come in to hunt with me because I simply don't have the deer herd to do it any more. And you can imagine what kind of a fire that lights in my ass...

I just set aside $1,500 to pay to hunt in my own county next year. It's retarded and it pisses me off. But I have to do what I have to do. Never would I have imagined having 140+ acre of ground I could manage and develop free of cost and I have to abandon it because of a host of factors, with declining deer numbers leading the way. Maybe if I continue to develop the ground and feed like I do, and we don't kill any deer for a few years, things will improve. But I doubt it because it all sits in a "brown and down" neighborhood. Just leaves me shaking my head...
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
24,834
247
Are you saying that you think that 50% of the deer shot with archery equipment are not recovered? I find that shocking. I read multiple forums and I know it happends, but I would truly be shocked if it was that high. Just curious what you think the gun loss would be? Boom....Boom...boom......boom...booom....boom.....boommm. Are all of those really misses? And don't get me wrong I enjoy the hell out of gun hunting, but I have seen too much to think gun hunters don't wound more than any other group.

I firmly believe it is that high. I can't tell you how many times I have taken a long walk trying to help a neighbor find a wounded deer, and have taken a few that were my own fault as well. I'm not proud of it, but its happened. I would imagine wounding by gun is rather high too. Generally, I'll find deer after gun season that should have been recovered. We've all heard the stories from the average, hunt a couple days a year fella; "Knocked him down and he ran off" , "musta just grazed him".... These are the same folks that will pick up a Horton at Walmart, some bolts and broadheads and head to the woods in archery season...LET ME SAY THAT IS NOT A KNOCK ON CROSSBOWS, but rather the less than dedicated hunter that is often using them. Granted, that hunter may develop into a serious bowhunter (using a crossbow, or vertical), but that fella has a heck of a learning curve to go through, and the deer are the ones that pay the price. Either wounded with gun or bow, the wounded numbers are high, and are impossible to factor into the total kill. I gotta believe with archery hunting becoming so popular over the last decade or two, the wounding/dead not recovered rate has become a huge, unaccountable factor. Mandatory Bowhunter Ed would decrease that to some degree, and would keep archery season for only those willing to put forth that little bit of extra effort....which is not at all what the DOW wants right now, they want a body count, even if it is not accurate.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
48,879
274
Appalachia
Either wounded with gun or bow, the wounded numbers are high, and are impossible to factor into the total kill. I gotta believe with archery hunting becoming so popular over the last decade or two, the wounding/dead not recovered rate has become a huge, unaccountable factor. Mandatory Bowhunter Ed would decrease that to some degree, and would keep archery season for only those willing to put forth that little bit of extra effort....which is not at all what the DOW wants right now, they want a body count, even if it is not accurate.

:smiley_clap:
 

jagermeister

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
18,060
223
Ohio
I am looking at future seasons when I might have a child to take hunting and the burning question is: "Will it be worth it?" If as I continue to develop as a hunter, I continue to have worse and worse seasons due to factors which most certainly include declining deer numbers, how miserable will the hunting be in Washington County when I do have kids?!?

I did a little digging and it is interesting that there is a discrepancy in the DNR's number for Washington County. With the current numbers, we were down 13% in 2011. However according to the press release from last season, where it was claimed we killed 2,935 and not 2,555 like the current release reads, we are down 24%!!! Why the difference in numbes Tonk? Was there ever a release to explain that? Using the number provided in the 2010 release (2,935), we were down 18% in 2010. But if the "real" number was the 2,555 provided in the current release, then we were down 29% last year!!! These are just gun season numbers and it scares the hell out of what it means for the future of hunting here in Washington County. Also keep in mind that we are the largest land mass county in the state. We should have a shit ton of deer right? After all, we have more ground than anyone else. So why are we seeing the declines we are seeing? I can promise you the blue tongue we had 3-4 years ago is part of that decline and that the powers that be in the DNR never bothered to consider that when allowing us to continue whacking and stacking deer. It is just one more reason I am screaming for a micro-manage approach with GW's that take an actual interest in the deer herd within their jurisdictions...

Being 100% honest, if you don't hunt in Washington County and you don't have the real time data to argue with me on a micro level, then I have no real use for your argument as to why I suck as a hunter because I'm lazy and blah, blah, blah. I'm far from lazy and I can't really argue that I don't suck as a hunter. But I have faith in myself and in the ground I hunt. I have 5 years of detailed logs to look back on, ones that cover nearly 1,000 hours on stand. I know what I see happening in my county. I don't need a wildlife biology degree, nor do I have to be the next Kaiser or Gern to know that our deer herd is getting POUNDED down here. I've made it a point the past few years to talk to taxidermists, processors, check stations, and hunters alike about what they are seeing. The talk is overwhelmingly negative. Talk of coyotes is a constant, as is the claim that "we just don't see deer in the fields like we used to". Not to mention most every hunter I talk to agrees we are killing TOO many deer. That brings up one other point to close things up...

I'd love to see how many deer are killed by WV hunters here in Washington County. Each season, more and more trucks roll in to our county from WV and with them, comes a large percentage of hunters who subscribe to the "brown and down" philosophy. I am of the opinion that a decent (10-20%) of our annual harvest goes across the river after it is killed. I've been screaming for an increase in NR license and tags for years because I feel we under value our resources in comparison to states with similar "trophy" hunting opportunities. It's just one more small piece to the puzzle that would help us avoid this slippery slope we're on. And it is one more thing that could better be addressed with a more micro-managed focused DNR. This statewide thing is far from being in the best interest of the true constituents of the DNR...

Jesse, I know you probably have better logs than anyone on this site. So what I'd like to know is how many total deer you and your group(s) have harvested each year for the past 8 years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the properties that you hunt are fairly good size and you have pretty exclusive access right? You also practice management strategies and habitat improvement on these properties right?... feeders, food plots, sanctuaries, etc? I'd like to know how your harvest totals compare over the years. I know you've given us your 'deer-sighted-per-hour' stats before but I'm not concerned with that... To me, it doesn't make sense. If you're managing a property extensively, being a smart and cautious hunter, then the deer from the surrounding, more-pressured properties would move toward the properties you manage. This is what I never understood about Joe's issues at the Vinton County lease. Over 900 acres of prime ground... which, mind you, is twice as large as the average home range of a doe... where guys quit shooting does, yet somehow over the years the population did not increase. If you're not shooting the deer, and you're providing food and sanctuary for them, where the hell are they going then? Are they just disappearing?
 

Gern186

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
10,171
201
NW Ohio Tundra
I am Chad. That is just one more part of the equation. But here is what I have to do in order to find a decent amount of deer so I feel comfortable killing a doe: take the hunt out of it. I can't hunt my best places and kill 2-3 does a year now. When I decide to kill a doe, it is just that... an effort to kill. No hunting about it. Grab the gun, head to an "urbanish" area and kill a doe. I'd like to feel comfortable killing does on our 76 acre farm again. Or my uncles 80 acres. But for the time being, they are off limits. At this point, I am going to have to stop having people come in to hunt with me because I simply don't have the deer herd to do it any more. And you can imagine what kind of a fire that lights in my ass...

I just set aside $1,500 to pay to hunt in my own county next year. It's retarded and it pisses me off. But I have to do what I have to do. Never would I have imagined having 140+ acre of ground I could manage and develop free of cost and I have to abandon it because of a host of factors, with declining deer numbers leading the way. Maybe if I continue to develop the ground and feed like I do, and we don't kill any deer for a few years, things will improve. But I doubt it because it all sits in a "brown and down" neighborhood. Just leaves me shaking my head...

Yeah that sucks Jesse....the brown and down neighborhood is the majority though....that is most of the problem we are all dealing with.

My uncle has 81 acres of continuous ground and over half of it is woods. The rest of it is CRP and wetlands reserve.....81 acres of cover in this county is a shitload, let me tell you. We have barely hunted this piece for 15 years, only saving it as a place to take my grandpa or aunt. The problem is with the neighbor....he lets anybody hunt that asks. Guess how many dead deer we have found on my uncles place over the last 15 years.......probably 30 or more.....you can't control the whole neighborhood. No matter how hard you try there is always going to be someone fucking up your ideas and plans...
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
39,720
248
Ohio
Great point on both sides with a little bit of delusion mixed in. What does this tell me as a whole about our group? We are a very passionate bunch. What else? If there is something that CAN be done, we are the passionate group that needs to figure out a way to help our cause.

The bow vs gun wounded deer argument is difficult to look at and find anything positive. It happens. I have talked to guys (not online) that almost brag about shooting a deer, walking up on it to find it is a button buck and leaving it lay. Same guy tells me about lobbing slugs at "Bullwinkle". Some of these same people are taking up crossbows or archery equipment and implementing the same practices. These are some of the same people hunting property lines, shooting out of truck windows, and in general will always be slobs. I don't think many will argue this thought.

I am in a unique and very fortunate situation. My buddy and I have a piece of land which is highly managed. We ARE seeing deer. However, it has gotten so bad on other properties I hunt that I rarely hunt them. Standing corn? Yep, it hurt a lot of us this year. Coyotes? Yep, we are seeing more of them around here. Less deer on camera day or night? Witnessed it first hand. Fields you used to see 60 deer in because they are off limits? Nope. Now there are 15-20 and the property is still off limits. I won't bitch. BUT, only because I am fortunate and in a very slim minority of people with access to a prime property. However, the majority of the guys on the forums or off them, do NOT have this type of access. There lies part of our problem. We have a reduced herd. We have limited access in areas WITH high densities. We have bag limits which are too liberal. Are there other problems? Sure. How do we address these in a constructive manner? I wish I knew.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
24,834
247
I think the greatest mis-justice of the liberal bag limits over the last few years is that people have naturally de-valued a doe. Over the last decade, the non-sense thinking of taking a doe to "help the herd" does not apply to Ohio. When you see the Drury's or Jay Greggory in Iowa saying that, and shooting a few does...its just a different world. I was on Jay's Iowa farm in Sept. They have more deer than most of us can imagine. They actually need to shoot a good number of them because that area is infested with them...they are running around like rats in a grain bin! The DOW pushing that line of thinking in such a heavily populated and hunted state like Ohio was very effective - it reduced the herd size dramatically (at least in the areas I am familiar). I understand that was their goal. What I find concerning is the fact they still claim the herd to be growing. Each year they estimate a higher population. That causes me to loose all faith in their methods because it does not correlate to what I see.
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
24,834
247
When I was a kid, my Dad's buddies would apply for doe tags just so they wouldn't go to another hunter that would actually fill them. They wanted to grow the deer herd, and did what they could to see that happen. I know times are different, but I am certain given the way things are around here these days, those guys would do the very same thing given the chance.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
48,879
274
Appalachia
Jesse, I know you probably have better logs than anyone on this site. So what I'd like to know is how many total deer you and your group(s) have harvested each year for the past 8 years. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the properties that you hunt are fairly good size and you have pretty exclusive access right? You also practice management strategies and habitat improvement on these properties right?... feeders, food plots, sanctuaries, etc? I'd like to know how your harvest totals compare over the years. I know you've given us your 'deer-sighted-per-hour' stats before but I'm not concerned with that... To me, it doesn't make sense. If you're managing a property extensively, being a smart and cautious hunter, then the deer from the surrounding, more-pressured properties would move toward the properties you manage. This is what I never understood about Joe's issues at the Vinton County lease. Over 900 acres of prime ground... which, mind you, is twice as large as the average home range of a doe... where guys quit shooting does, yet somehow over the years the population did not increase. If you're not shooting the deer, and you're providing food and sanctuary for them, where the hell are they going then? Are they just disappearing?

While it is true I am providing them with food and cover, I am just a small fraction of what is available in the immediate area. We have never held a lot of deer and even in the prime of that farm, we were holding what I felt was a small percentage of the local herd. (For me, the local herd encompasses about a 1,500 acre area that I am able to keep generally close tabs on.) Since we bought the farm here is what has happened harvest wise...

We killed zero deer in 2005. In 2006, there were 5 deer killed with two being button bucks and one being a wounded buck that would have died within a day or two of when we killed him (just two does). That same here, I watched 12 does and one buck in a late season group, leaving me with hope that things were just fine for coming years. In 2007, I killed 3 does and my buddy killed one. After a solid year of reducing number, I felt it was now time to be cautious with our doe harvests. In 2008, I killed one yearling doe and Matt killed one mature doe. In 2009, we killed one doe and one buck. Last season, we killed a button buck that was wounded; a mercy kill. In the span from 2009 to current, my doe numbers/sightings have continued to decline despite my efforts to give them food, security, and safety.
 

Gern186

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
10,171
201
NW Ohio Tundra
Hell of a good point Brock.....there are guys here that I know that are shooting does and then just donating them to hunters feeding hungry programs, and then they are the same guys complaining about the lack of deer sightings.