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Coyotes running deer: Not cool

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
39,721
248
Ohio
yotes are part of the balance, its not like they are getting 1 out of every two fawns.... Go out and try hunting them, they certainly aren't dumb..

Curious where you got your stats? We have seen a great reduction in fawns this year. I hadn't posted it as I wasn't trying to cry. Ask Bowhunter57 and look up his thread. He has zero deer sign in his area this year and they had a Policeman count up 12 of them running together. I give you one thing, they are not dumb.
 

sfry

Junior Member
1
46
Hey Phil, I helped us out today and gut shot a big male yote out there where you helped me track that deer last year. About eight oclock this morning i was sitting in my stand and a doe and two yearlings came in on me. didnt want to take the doe, but got ready just to practice drawing on her. Well then i caught some movement behind the fawns, and thought great, more deer. Nope better, a yote. Damn thing took to chasing the deer and the deer came in the trail close to my stand. The old yote trotted right up and stopped broadside at twenty yards and i dropped a rage two blade on him! Gave him about 45 min. to expire and got down to check things out. Found my arrow and about twelve inches of entestines. Tracked him about 75 yards and found him almost totally eviscerated. Could of fit a softball in the hole in old boys belly. That one wont be chasing no more deer.
 

DJK Frank 16

Senior Member
Supporting Member
9,358
133
Hardin County
Hey Phil, I helped us out today and gut shot a big male yote out there where you helped me track that deer last year. About eight oclock this morning i was sitting in my stand and a doe and two yearlings came in on me. didnt want to take the doe, but got ready just to practice drawing on her. Well then i caught some movement behind the fawns, and thought great, more deer. Nope better, a yote. Damn thing took to chasing the deer and the deer came in the trail close to my stand. The old yote trotted right up and stopped broadside at twenty yards and i dropped a rage two blade on him! Gave him about 45 min. to expire and got down to check things out. Found my arrow and about twelve inches of entestines. Tracked him about 75 yards and found him almost totally eviscerated. Could of fit a softball in the hole in old boys belly. That one wont be chasing no more deer.


Very nice! Talked to Brent this morning and he told me about it, seems like they are getting pretty thick over this way! Nice job
 

huntn2

Senior Member
6,090
157
Hudson, OH
Hey Phil, I helped us out today and gut shot a big male yote out there where you helped me track that deer last year. About eight oclock this morning i was sitting in my stand and a doe and two yearlings came in on me. didnt want to take the doe, but got ready just to practice drawing on her. Well then i caught some movement behind the fawns, and thought great, more deer. Nope better, a yote. Damn thing took to chasing the deer and the deer came in the trail close to my stand. The old yote trotted right up and stopped broadside at twenty yards and i dropped a rage two blade on him! Gave him about 45 min. to expire and got down to check things out. Found my arrow and about twelve inches of entestines. Tracked him about 75 yards and found him almost totally eviscerated. Could of fit a softball in the hole in old boys belly. That one wont be chasing no more deer.

Congrats on the yote and welcome to TOO!
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
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39,721
248
Ohio
Glad you found your way to TOO! They have really come on strong in our area this year. I would occasionally see them or hear them in the past. Last winter we hunted them pretty hard with minimal success. We were limited to calling them. Need to get some additional permission this year so we can flush them out and follow them in the snow to hunt them down. They are very bad around the Shawnee/Cridersville area this year and obviously have moved into some other areas too. I won't give out your "secret hunting spot". lol
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
cool pics.. it does suck when you see yotes down a nice buck... Rember its called balance. there are not that many deer beign taken by yotes as there are deer beign taking by vehicle crashes... I think the insurance companies put pressure on the DNR to up the limit on deer so the cost is not so bad for them.... JMTC... yotes are part of the balance, its not like they are getting 1 out of every two fawns.... Go out and try hunting them, they certainly aren't dumb... not with a rifle with a bow a shotgun....

Actually there are far far more deer being killed by yotes.. 1 out of 2 fawns would be 50%, you're right they aren't getting that.. It's worse than that..

Three recent University of Georgia research projects examined properties in Georgia, Alabama and South Carolina. All three studies found coyotes can be tough on fawns, especially during the fawns' first six weeks.

In southwestern Georgia, researchers used trail cameras to survey fawn-to-doe ratios in two study areas 2.5 miles apart. They removed 23 coyotes and three bobcats from January to August in an 11,000-acre area, but removed no predators from a nearby 7,000-acre block.

Shortly before hunting season, their camera census estimated 0.72 fawns per doe where predators were killed, and 0.07 fawns per doe where no predators were killed. Translation: Two fawns were present for every three does in the predator-removal area, and two fawns were present for every 28 does where no predators were killed.

In South Carolina, a 3-year study at the U.S. Forest Service's Southern Research Station on the 300-square-mile Savannah River Site found only 16 of 60 radio-collared fawns lived past nine weeks, a 27 percent survival rate. Most deaths occurred within five to six weeks of birth. Specifically, 16 (36 percent) died the first week; 26 (59 percent) died between week two and week six; one died in week seven; and one died in week nine. In other words, if two does gave birth to twins, by Labor Day they had one fawn between them.

Researchers attributed only 13 percent (five) of those 44 deaths to bobcats. They confirmed coyotes as the predator in 65 percent of the deaths, the probable predator in 15 percent of the deaths and the most likely predator in 5 percent of the deaths. Therefore, coyotes were likely responsible for about 38 (85%) of the 44 dead fawns.

Using swabs to collect DNA samples at kill sites, the researchers also concluded all coyotes kill fawns, not just dominant, experienced breeders. Of 15 kill sites used to identify individual coyotes and bobcats, researchers recorded only two individual coyotes at more than one site.

In northeastern Alabama, a two-year study on 2,000 acres convinced researchers that coyotes were a limiting factor in the number of fawns "recruited" into the herd. Two findings guided their conclusion: First, laboratory analysis of coyote scat and stomach contents showed fawns made up 27.3 percent of the coyotes' July-to-September diet, the region's peak fawning months. Although small mammals (rabbits and rodents) also formed 27.3 percent of the summer diet, fawn meat was found more important because of its higher nutritional value. Second, the researchers documented a staggering jump in fawn abundance after trappers removed 22 coyotes and 10 bobcats between February and July 2007.

Data from experienced-hunter observations showed a fawn/doe ratio of 0.52 before the trapping program, and 1.1 after the removals.
Similarly, a network of Web-equipped cameras showed 0.52 fawns per doe before removal and 1.33 afterward. Combined, that's a 190 percent increase in fawn-to-doe ratios.
 
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matthewusmc8791

Junior Member
288
46
NE Ohio
the above stats sounds an aweful like health topics..... if you eat eggs this month they are good for you, but next month they are not...

Well, if Ohio is affected by yotes like the southern states are then why haven they lowered the number of deer to be taken during seasons??? If im reading your info correctly, 85% fawna are killed.... If that were the case, the deer population would never regenerate. Look at harvest numbers for 03-04 was 197k and 04-05 was 216k and 05-06 was 209k and 06-07 was 237k and 07-08 was 232k and 080-09 was 252k and 09-10 was 261k and 10-11 261k also... That data was right from DNR site.. so the number of deer kills by hunters are going up each year.....long seasons are the reason lead to more hunting time which leads to more deer kills... Can't blame it all on the yotes...
 

huntn2

Senior Member
6,090
157
Hudson, OH
the above stats sounds an aweful like health topics..... if you eat eggs this month they are good for you, but next month they are not...

Well, if Ohio is affected by yotes like the southern states are then why haven they lowered the number of deer to be taken during seasons??? If im reading your info correctly, 85% fawna are killed.... If that were the case, the deer population would never regenerate. Look at harvest numbers for 03-04 was 197k and 04-05 was 216k and 05-06 was 209k and 06-07 was 237k and 07-08 was 232k and 080-09 was 252k and 09-10 was 261k and 10-11 261k also... That data was right from DNR site.. so the number of deer kills by hunters are going up each year.....long seasons are the reason lead to more hunting time which leads to more deer kills... Can't blame it all on the yotes...

I think the states numbers can be miss-leading...

It is pretty much useless to go strictly off total number of deer harvested. It would really be meaningful if the state shared with us harvest stats as a variable unit. I would like to see deer killed per license sold and deer killed per permit sold. My gut tells me that over the same timeframe that you have provided above the number of licensed hunters and permits sold have increased at a rate that is perhaps greater than the percent increase in deer taken over the same period of time.

It would make complete sense that the total deer harvest has increased if the number of hunters and permits being available and sold are increasing at a rate equal to or greater than the harvest rate. Therefore, analyzing deer killed per license or permit sold year over year is a far more meaningful statistic. It would be nieve to think the ODNR doesn't look at statistics in this way and therefore, if they aren't sharing it, it is only because it doesn't tell the story they want told.

Just my 2 cents...
 

epe

Senior Member
6,113
93
Lancaster
I know within the last couple years the yotes have gotten bad where we hunt in Perry county. The neighbor in front of the property we hunt witnessed yotes take two fawns last year in the field by his pond. Got there too late to do anything. I know we have not seen near the amount of deer the last couple years. Sorry but it is not a coincidence.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
the above stats sounds an aweful like health topics..... if you eat eggs this month they are good for you, but next month they are not...

Well, if Ohio is affected by yotes like the southern states are then why haven they lowered the number of deer to be taken during seasons??? If im reading your info correctly, 85% fawna are killed.... If that were the case, the deer population would never regenerate. Look at harvest numbers for 03-04 was 197k and 04-05 was 216k and 05-06 was 209k and 06-07 was 237k and 07-08 was 232k and 080-09 was 252k and 09-10 was 261k and 10-11 261k also... That data was right from DNR site.. so the number of deer kills by hunters are going up each year.....long seasons are the reason lead to more hunting time which leads to more deer kills... Can't blame it all on the yotes...

Not going to argue with ya bud.. Simply presenting data from studies done buy people much more involved, smarter, and equipped than the both of us on the subject. I will tell you though that the dnr has a 24x7x365 season, with almost any weapon available included traps and one of the few where high power is authorized, even at night with a spotlight, with no limit on how many, and landowners can even shoot them legally from their vehicles... The dnr has removed every aspect that might hinder us killing them besides legalizing trespassing and poison.. You can't tell me it's not because they don't think yotes are a hindrance to the deer population.
 

RedCloud

Super Moderator
Super Mod
17,381
193
North Central Ohio
I think the states numbers can be miss-leading...

It is pretty much useless to go strictly off total number of deer harvested. It would really be meaningful if the state shared with us harvest stats as a variable unit. I would like to see deer killed per license sold and deer killed per permit sold. My gut tells me that over the same timeframe that you have provided above the number of licensed hunters and permits sold have increased at a rate that is perhaps greater than the percent increase in deer taken over the same period of time.

It would make complete sense that the total deer harvest has increased if the number of hunters and permits being available and sold are increasing at a rate equal to or greater than the harvest rate. Therefore, analyzing deer killed per license or permit sold year over year is a far more meaningful statistic. It would be nieve to think the ODNR doesn't look at statistics in this way and therefore, if they aren't sharing it, it is only because it doesn't tell the story they want told.

Just my 2 cents...

If you call the ODNR in Columbus you can ask for them to send you the information that your asking about. I had them send me information back in 05' of how many permits was sold and how many deer had been harvested. I wanted to see how much money the ODNR made off of licenses. I don't remember right off hand but I think it was just over 500k licenses sold and only 220k actually tagged in a deer. The only thing I didn't find out and the papers didn't break down was how many was killed on each type of tag meaning it didn't breakdown the discounted doe tags. It also shows how many NR tags was sold. Pretty cool stuff for me and I'm not a number cruncher like yourself. They will not have last years numbers available for print yet I don't think but you should be able to get the numbers for the last several years.
 

huntn2

Senior Member
6,090
157
Hudson, OH
If you call the ODNR in Columbus you can ask for them to send you the information that your asking about. I had them send me information back in 05' of how many permits was sold and how many deer had been harvested. I wanted to see how much money the ODNR made off of licenses. I don't remember right off hand but I think it was just over 500k licenses sold and only 220k actually tagged in a deer. The only thing I didn't find out and the papers didn't break down was how many was killed on each type of tag meaning it didn't breakdown the discounted doe tags. It also shows how many NR tags was sold. Pretty cool stuff for me and I'm not a number cruncher like yourself. They will not have last years numbers available for print yet I don't think but you should be able to get the numbers for the last several years.

Exactly right Adam. Like I said, they have the info because there is no doubt they use variable metrics. So the question becomes, why is it they publish total harvest by weapon and then for the season as opposed to the variable metrics? Do the variable metrics tell a different story or are they just perceived as not "valuable" to us the hunters?

I pulled a bunch of the ODNR's stats together once before to look into it more on my own. If I use the same date range used above here are the permits sold:

  • 2003 = 515,928
  • 2004 = 520,458
  • 2005 = 515,181
  • 2006 = 543,614
  • 2007 = 578,366
  • 2008 = 611,442
  • 2009 = 624,908
  • 2010 = 643,935*****

I estimated the permits sold for 2010/2011 to be 643,935 based on the average percent increase for the previous 7 years. So just like the harvest numbers, you see permit sales rise year over year. With these numbers, kills per permit solid looks like this:

  • 2003 = 38%
  • 2004 = 42%
  • 2005 = 41%
  • 2006 = 44%
  • 2007 = 40%
  • 2008 = 41%
  • 2009 = 42%
  • 2010 = 37%*****

So as you can see, kills per permit sold stays relatively flat over the last 8 years. That said, according to my projections only, it looks like kills per permit sold is actually lower than it was 8 years ago. So like I said, looking at total harvest alone is missleading...total harvest from 2003 to 2010 was up 21% (41,470 deer), but deer killed per permit sold is lower in 2010 than it was in 2003 because permits are up 25% (128,007 permits) during the same span.

Basically all I am saying is you can't say the coyote aren't impacting deer herd numbers cause total deer harvest is still up (for the most part) year over year. As shown, deer harvest can be up simply because more hunters/permits are being sold...
 
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camofry

*Supporting Member*
I have seen coyotes in places I have not seen them before over the last few years. I think we will all see a large drop in Turkeys over the next few years also. We all have to keep in mind also that decline in fawns could also be due to the fact that the coyotes are just in a area. Does will not breed when there is a threat of servival around them. Me and the wife are hunting all this week and we was talking last night and if it comes to eating our Deer and Turkey tags this year just to kill off all the dirt dogs we see, that is what we will do.
 

Jackalope

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38,841
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Cool shit ryan... That's the same thing i tried explaining to people when i was screaming about deer numbers being lower. The population numbers can be lower and we can still kill more deer each year.. With the addition of an extra gun season, more tags, and more hunters it can easily skew the numbers.
 

hickslawns

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39,721
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Ohio
I will say I am only on my second year hunting this property. Without knowing how the crop rotation affects the deer sightings on this farm, I cannot yet tell if the coyotes are having an impact or not. While I do have one set of tripletts which appeared to make it, outside of the triplets I have only seen one other fawn this spring. My guess is because the doe that throws triplets has done so for the last 3-4yrs and you see them often times in high visibility areas such as by the house or road. I am not getting the coyotes by the house. I am catching them on camera 1/2 mile off the road. The coyotes have really come on strong on this property this year and the does with fawns on camera went down this year. Coincidence? I just don't know because it is only my second year on this property.
 

jagermeister

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Supporting Member
18,060
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Ohio
Arrgggggghhhhh!!!! I went almost two years running cams at the property I hunt in Carroll County, and NEVER had a single picture of a coyote. Well, up until now that is. This past check of the Spypoint revealed videos of coyotes on 4 separate occasions up in the old hayfield. Mother fuggers!