SOS From The ODNR.

Jackalope · Feb 7, 2011

Curran said:
Time will tell if Tonk is full of it or not. I know one thing, if he hasn't heard anything from hunters about the overall numbers & sightings of deer being down, then he hasn't been outside of his office, or anywhere online. The forums have had these types of threads going all throughout the season. And that is real time information from actual hunters, spending time in the woods. I'd have to say that the majority of hunter's I've talked to seemed to be seeing less deer this past season. Factor in the harvest figures from the prior two seasons and you have to question whether these types of kills can continue to be achieved.

So then what to do next? If most hunters feel that deer numbers are on the decline, and aren't buying in to the ODNR storyline of weather, acorns, and squirrel babble, then we have to take matters into our own hands and kill deer according to our respective areas. Only kill what you feel your hunting area can provide. If you like seeing high numbers, then only kill one deer, and encourage others in your group or hunting area to do the same. Just because you can kill a certain amount of deer, doesn't mean you should.

In duck hunting it's called voluntary restraint... you try to only shoot the drakes, and let the hens live to lay more eggs. It's still legal to shoot a single hen mallard in your daily bag, and Ohio wants hunters to kill more "antlerless" deer (does), but dead hens can't lay eggs. Just like dead does don't have fawns. Don't read into this thinking I don't kill does because I do, and will continue to do so on the areas that I hunt in which there are enough does to go around. The point is hunters might just have to self-police and use some voluntary restraint if we feel the overall herd numbers are on the decline.

I see what your saying.. However, this will do absolutely zero good as a whole. While the big buck craze of QDM has gone through the roof the past 10 years for big buck management .. I bet there is a very small percentage of Ohio hunters that practice it... The ODNR takes ample credit for the management practices that led to Ohio becoming a big buck state.. Not "we the DNR didn't do anything, It was all the QDM hunters. We want them to shoot 6 bucks, but the fuggers only shoot 1" No they constantly point to their 1 buck limit as being the key... Does the DNR get to take credit for a low buck limit leading to bigger bucks, but not a high doe limit leading to decreased deer?

You can't dramatically increase deer numbers when you neighbors are allowed to blast away. How about the Amish neighbors that shoot 6 deer per family member... Or the neighbor with 50 acres who shoots 2-3, his brother shoots 2-3 and they take ole dad out to shoot 1 or 2 for gun.

The bottom line is man.. It's not out job to limit deer numbers so as not to be detrimental to the herd as a whole. That is first and foremost the responsibility of the DNR. Management Starts with them.. It is their sole reason for existence..

Saying we should limit ourselves to 1 instead of 6 is like saying everyone should go 30 in a 65. Can I personally do it... Sure.. Do you think everyone will? Or even 50% will? Never... Why have speed limits set by ODOT if that's even remotely possible. The only way to make everyone go slower is to lower the limit.. Not pass the buck and say you should practice "voluntary restraint"...

jagermeister · Feb 7, 2011

I saw a ton of deer this year, especially considering the fact that I hardly got out there to hunt. The public land I hunted in November was crawling with deer the week that I was down there. In fact, I saw more deer there this year than the past two years combined. Does this mean anything? Hell, I don't know. All I can say is that I'm not unhappy with the way our deer herd's been managed. Maybe I'm the minority on this one, but I'm (thankfully) not seeing any problems in the areas that I hunt.

If too many deer are harvested, I'm confident the DOW will make the necessary adjustment(s). If it gets to where bag limits must be reduced, the deer population will most likely bounce back pretty damn fast. It's difficult to say what needs to be done, if anything, at this point.

What I don't understand is why everyone thinks the squirrel roadkill comparison is so ridiculous. It seems like a perfectly plausible theory to me. More acorns hitting the ground means less travel to find acorns... less travel means less roads being crossed... therefore less roadkills. What's so fuggin ridiculous about that??? It's just a hypothesis, people... an idea... and IMO, it's certainly a valid one.

Oh, and I also don't understand the thread title because in no way does this article imply that the ODNR is in trouble, calling SOS. Just sayin'...

Jackalope · Feb 7, 2011

JBrown said:
I saw a ton of deer this year, especially considering the fact that I hardly got out there to hunt. The public land I hunted in November was crawling with deer the week that I was down there. In fact, I saw more deer there this year than the past two years combined. Does this mean anything? Hell, I don't know. All I can say is that I'm not unhappy with the way our deer herd's been managed. Maybe I'm the minority on this one, but I'm (thankfully) not seeing any problems in the areas that I hunt.

If too many deer are harvested, I'm confident the DOW will make the necessary adjustment(s). If it gets to where bag limits must be reduced, the deer population will most likely bounce back pretty damn fast. It's difficult to say what needs to be done, if anything, at this point.

What I don't understand is why everyone thinks the squirrel roadkill comparison is so ridiculous. It seems like a perfectly plausible theory to me. More acorns hitting the ground means less travel to find acorns... less travel means less roads being crossed... therefore less roadkills. What's so fuggin ridiculous about that??? It's just a hypothesis, people... an idea... and IMO, it's certainly a valid one.

Oh, and I also don't understand the thread title because in no way does this article imply that the ODNR is in trouble, calling SOS. Just sayin'...

SOS = Same Old Shit... I.E Weather excuses.. Food Excuses... And now, Squirrel road fatality supporting evidence..

As far as the acorns / roads / travel / dead squirrels go... I wonder if he can explain why the only oaks last year with acorns that i found in VC were along the roads. We'll, I know why that is actually, cars, heat, etc.. But why wasn't US 50 paved with pancaked squirrels? I mean every squirrel in the hills should have been down there getting squashed..

Don't you think a better logic of why less squirrels got squashed this year is simply because a crapload of squirrels starved in those hills last year.. I know this year the kids who usually hammer the squirrels basically quit hunting them.. Wasn't many to be found.. between the lack of mast, the deeper snow in February, ice layer on top of the snow, and more snow Many of them just plain and simply starved. Even durring bow season last year it always seemed like wherever you hung a stand there would be 4-6 squirrels.. This year i would see one every once in a while.. Nothing alarming. They should be back, they breed like rats.. But i would think this makes far more sense than food migrations.

jagermeister · Feb 7, 2011

Jackalope said:
SOS = Same Old Shit... I.E Weather excuses.. Food Excuses... And now, Squirrel road fatality supporting evidence..

As far as the acorns / roads / travel / dead squirrels go... I wonder if he can explain why the only oaks last year with acorns that i found in VC were along the roads. We'll, I know why that is actually, cars, heat, etc.. But why wasn't US 50 paved with pancaked squirrels? I mean every squirrel in the hills should have been down there getting squashed..

Don;t you think a better logic of why less squirrels got squashed this year is simply because a crapload of squirrels starved in those hills last year.. I know this year the kids who usually hammer the squirrels basically quit hunting them.. Wasn't many to be found.. Even durring bow season it always seemed like wherever you hung a stand there would be 4-6 squirrels.. This year i would see one every once in a while.. Many of them just plain and simply starved..

Is that another hypothesis? Sure. Is it better logic? Not necessarily. I didn't notice any decrease in squirrel sightings from the treestand this year.

Jackalope · Feb 7, 2011

JBrown said:
Is that another hypothesis? Sure. Is it better logic? Not necessarily. I didn't notice any decrease in squirrel sightings from the treestand this year.

Good, bud, i'm happy you're not feeling the pain yet in the areas you hunt... There could be many reasons for this.. The property i hunt in clark is the same way... BUTTLOADS of deer... However I have hunted thousands of thousands of acres in SO that were once phenomenal and now not worth time.. There are people on these boards that a couple years ago said the same as you do today ... Jesse being one of them... 2 years ago he said he didn't see a problem at all.. This year he is saying he is going to implement a no doe, or one doe rule next year.

Either way.. It's arbitrary... Last i checked the ODNR didn't have a roadkill squirrel counter division.. And if this roadkill squirrel number "hypothesis" is the same type of logic being used to set deer bag limits and population estimates, then I'm not surprised we're in this mess. Either way, it has 0 credibility as supporting evidence to explain away a 30,000 drop in kill numbers, and the mere attempt at such a correlation is laughable at best.

tuffshot · Feb 7, 2011

Medina Co sound like the place to be for sqweerlz and deer, gonna tell everyone I know.

jagermeister · Feb 8, 2011

Jackalope said:
Good, bud, i'm happy you're not feeling the pain yet in the areas you hunt... There could be many reasons for this.. The property i hunt in clark is the same way... BUTTLOADS of deer... However I have hunted thousands of thousands of acres in SO that were once phenomenal and now not worth time.. There are people on these boards that a couple years ago said the same as you do today ... Jesse being one of them... 2 years ago he said he didn't see a problem at all.. This year he is saying he is going to implement a no doe, or one doe rule next year.

Either way.. It's arbitrary... Last i checked the ODNR didn't have a roadkill squirrel counter division.. And if this roadkill squirrel number "hypothesis" is the same type of logic being used to set deer bag limits and population estimates, then I'm not surprised we're in this mess. Either way, it has 0 credibility as supporting evidence to explain away a 30,000 drop in kill numbers, and the mere attempt at such a correlation is laughable at best.

I don't think he's referencing squirrel roadkill counts as a management strategy, man... he just used it as an example of the many factors that influence season harvest totals. The idea itself is ONE possible factor... not THE factor being used to explain anything away. I just think it's funny how the guy can't even make a hypothetical statement (a plausible one at that) without having his intelligence questioned on the internet.

tuffshot said:
Medina Co sound like the place to be for sqweerlz and deer, gonna tell everyone I know.

Good one. Go right ahead, bub... tell them all. If you paid attention to the things I've posted over the years, you'd know I don't hunt deer in Medina County. :smiley_armscrossed:

finelyshedded · Feb 8, 2011

JBrown said:
I don't think he's referencing squirrel roadkill counts as a management strategy, man... he just used it as an example of the many factors that influence season harvest totals. The idea itself is ONE possible factor... not THE factor being used to explain anything away. I just think it's funny how the guy can't even make a hypothetical statement (a plausible one at that) without having his intelligence questioned on the internet.Good one. Go right ahead, bub... tell them all. If you paid attention to the things I've posted over the years, you'd know I don't hunt deer in Medina County. :smiley_armscrossed:

Jim, I understand his hypothesis but just don't buy that a great crop of acorns kept squirrels from getting squashed and deer safe from hunters. Just sayin':smiley_coolpeace:

Schu72 · Feb 8, 2011

I don't buy the acorn issue for gun season at all, maybe bow, but not gun. Most gun hunters do some driving. So if the deer are there they are going to get booted and pushed from one lot to the next. Even if guys aren't driving there are still hundteds of thousands of hunters walking to and from stands all during the same couple of days. If the deer were there, they would get bumped around. I saw 3 deer in 6 days of gun hunting. My worst season for sightings ever.

Curran · Feb 8, 2011

Jackalope said:
I see what your saying.. However, this will do absolutely zero good as a whole. While the big buck craze of QDM has gone through the roof the past 10 years for big buck management .. I bet there is a very small percentage of Ohio hunters that practice it... The ODNR takes ample credit for the management practices that led to Ohio becoming a big buck state.. Not "we the DNR didn't do anything, It was all the QDM hunters. We want them to shoot 6 bucks, but the fuggers only shoot 1" No they constantly point to their 1 buck limit as being the key... Does the DNR get to take credit for a low buck limit leading to bigger bucks, but not a high doe limit leading to decreased deer?

You can't dramatically increase deer numbers when you neighbors are allowed to blast away. How about the Amish neighbors that shoot 6 deer per family member... Or the neighbor with 50 acres who shoots 2-3, his brother shoots 2-3 and they take ole dad out to shoot 1 or 2 for gun.

The bottom line is man.. It's not out job to limit deer numbers so as not to be detrimental to the herd as a whole. That is first and foremost the responsibility of the DNR. Management Starts with them.. It is their sole reason for existence..

Saying we should limit ourselves to 1 instead of 6 is like saying everyone should go 30 in a 65. Can I personally do it... Sure.. Do you think everyone will? Or even 50% will? Never... Why have speed limits set by ODOT if that's even remotely possible. The only way to make everyone go slower is to lower the limit.. Not pass the buck and say you should practice "voluntary restraint"...

I agree, that for a certain percentage of the masses to take their foot off the accelerator, the speed limit signs are gonna have to get lowered. BUT (and there's always a BUT) I think that we're likely to continue seeing the high bag limits until the ODNR feels that the overall herd numbers are at their goal level. I don't remember what that level is, hopefully it's not what the Farm Bureau was pushing for a few years back at 250,000 deer. That being said, if the general consensus of deer hunters is that we're killing TOO many deer, then we have to restrain ourselves from doing what the ODNR is trying to get us to do, kill TOO many deer.

Think of it like driving on the highway when it's starting to snow. At first the roads are fine, and you can still get away with going 70mph. You're still speeding, but conditions seem fine. The snow keeps coming down and now things are getting a little bit slippery. You can keep your foot on the accelerator if you choose to, or even slow down just a bit and run at the posted speed limit of 65mph. You're still traveling along and starting to notice that the roads are now just about covered. Some of the vehicles in the right lane are starting to let off, but you're still in the left lane with the foot down because the signs say 65mph so it's still legal, right? The conditions have changed but how you decide to drive your car is ultimately your choice. You can personally decide to keep on rollin', but you might also end up losing control and spin out in the ditch along with the rest of the cars driving too fast for the present conditions.

Jackalope · Feb 8, 2011

Here's the thing bud.. It not our job to set arbitrary bag limits. if we as hunters as a whole were even remotely capable of doing that on a large enough scale to make a difference. Then we wouldn't need a dnr to set bag limits to protect the herd. We wouldn't need tags so they can keep track of how many we kill and make sure its not too many. It is not the hunters job to make sure we don't kill to many... If it were, we wouldn't need a dnr. But to personally set a lower limit in hopes to somehow privately rescue the state from a dnr who is allowing overbagging is futile.. You know that, I know that, and the dnr knows that.

while I will shoot less deer personally I'm not going to sit back and keep my mouth shut about the problem. We have a dnr who is responsible for bag limits and it is them I will hold accountable. Not hunters.

I can see I'm going to have to go big time with this for someone in columbus to pull their hearing aids out of their desk drawer. I don't have time to collect the thousands of hunters surveys I need before March but by the next odnr meeting a year from now it will be blatantly obvious and unable to be ignored. This charade is about to get a whole lot more dificult.

Geezer · Feb 8, 2011

Jackalope said:
Here's the thing bud.. It not our job to set arbitrary bag limits. if we as hunters as a whole were even remotely capable of doing that on a large enough scale to make a difference. Then we wouldn't need a dnr to set bag limits to protect the herd. We wouldn't need tags so they can keep track of how many we kill and make sure its not too many. It is not the hunters job to make sure we don't kill to many... If it were, we wouldn't need a dnr. But to personally set a lower limit in hopes to somehow privately rescue the state from a dnr who is allowing overbagging is futile.. You know that, I know that, and the dnr knows that.

while I will shoot less deer personally I'm not going to sit back and keep my mouth shut about the problem. We have a dnr who is responsible for bag limits and it is them I will hold accountable. Not hunters.

I can see I'm going to have to go big time with this for someone in columbus to pull their hearing aids out of their desk drawer. I don't have time to collect the thousands of hunters surveys I need before March but by the next odnr meeting a year from now it will be blatantly obvious and unable to be ignored. This charade is about to get a whole lot more dificult.

Your argument is lame - dang :smiley_baby::smiley_baby::smiley_baby::smiley_baby::smiley_baby: - you want big government to direct your life - doan ya - dang democrats - rotflmaorotflmaorotflmaorotflmaorotflmao

tuffshot · Feb 8, 2011

JBrown said:
I don't think he's referencing squirrel roadkill counts as a management strategy, man... he just used it as an example of the many factors that influence season harvest totals. The idea itself is ONE possible factor... not THE factor being used to explain anything away. I just think it's funny how the guy can't even make a hypothetical statement (a plausible one at that) without having his intelligence questioned on the internet.

Good one. Go right ahead, bub... tell them all. If you paid attention to the things I've posted over the years, you'd know I don't hunt deer in Medina County. :smiley_armscrossed:

Don't take it too serious, J. I would never travel that far to shoot a deer anyway.
I do remember this kind of discussion from not too long ago, you had the same feelings and input then.
The impact is never realized until it has an impact on the individual.

Schu72 · Feb 8, 2011

I was doing a little web searching and found this post on another site. Note the date. Anyway, Tonk says he wants to hear from you. Fill up his inbox!

treestandman
01-05-2009, 02:06 PM
I got to talk to Mike Tonkovich from the ODNR. If you are seeing the same lack of deer on public land where you hunt how about contact :
Mike Tonkovich @ mike.tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us
Or write him at
260 E. State St.
Athens, Ohio 45701
When I spoke to Mike he told me to tell everyone that is seeing this lack of deer to attend your district wildlife meeting this spring which will be help the first Sunday in March, March 1st, at each district office. He also said he only got one other call this year about a lack of deer. He needs to hear from you if this is a problem where you hunt.

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Jackalope · Feb 8, 2011

Schu72 said:
I was doing a little web searching and found this post on another site. Note the date. Anyway, Tonk says he wants to hear from you. Fill up his inbox!

treestandman
01-05-2009, 02:06 PM
I got to talk to Mike Tonkovich from the ODNR. If you are seeing the same lack of deer on public land where you hunt how about contact :
Mike Tonkovich @ mike.tonkovich@dnr.state.oh.us
Or write him at
260 E. State St.
Athens, Ohio 45701
When I spoke to Mike he told me to tell everyone that is seeing this lack of deer to attend your district wildlife meeting this spring which will be help the first Sunday in March, March 1st, at each district office. He also said he only got one other call this year about a lack of deer. He needs to hear from you if this is a problem where you hunt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have his personal email address from two years ago where we talked about this very issue.... A bunch of good it will do you to email them. Or you could talk to him personally on the phone like brock did. They'll just say they havent heard boo... They have their marching orders and will toe the line.... Read what's on the memo and nothing more.

Jackalope · Feb 8, 2011

GEEZER said:
Your argument is lame - dang :smiley_baby::smiley_baby::smiley_baby::smiley_baby::smiley_baby: - you want big government to direct your life - doan ya - dang democrats - rotflmaorotflmaorotflmaorotflmaorotflmao

The argument is perfectly logical geezer... Wake up buddy. They already rule the roost when it comes to deer management for the state... I don't want them to do anything they aren't supposed to already be doing correctly and be held accountable if they screw up... Not pass the buck, make excuses, and keep on.

formerbowhunter1023 · Feb 9, 2011

I can tell you this right now, the squirrels got hammered in my area last year and there were simply less of them this year. In addition to that, the ones that did survive had a bumper crop of acorns and did not need to travel in search of food like they did last year, hence the reason less got hit on the road down here. That ain't no hypothesis, that's fact. The "dead squirrels" excuse is just more smoke trying to be pumped up my ass...

rgecko23 · Feb 9, 2011

its comin out your ears...

tuffshot · Feb 9, 2011

This year mast crop was good in southern Ohio.
As for squirrels acorns only make up their major diet if there are no hickory nuts trees.
With several varieties of hickory trees in Ohio their mast is just as important in their population apperance.
Even black walnuts provide late winter food for squirrels.

Acorns? I don't think they are a true measure.

brock ratcliff · Feb 9, 2011

I'm guilty. I shot too many deer this year. I didn't shoot 'em off the property I'm concerned about, or even in the same county. But, its likely the county I did shoot 'em in is in a downward spiral too, and I shoulda let 'em go. Tonk's bullshit is just getting insulting. I told him how bad Fayette was getting last year. We checked in 83 this year during gun season. He texted Mrex, and Mrex fwded to me that " I was right, and they would lower the bag limit for Fayette next year". Thanks Tonk, now that there are none left to breed, we should stop shooting! We are about three yrs too late in leveling the herd, they are nearly gone in areas, yet they still say we have 750,000. Funny, when the State estimated we had 400,000, I saw five times as many deer. Fuggers can't count it seems.

SOS From The ODNR.

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