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Deer Harvest Trend

Joel

Senior Member
3,049
113
Centerburg, Ohio
I don't know if this would prove anything but I'm curious about something. Can we see somewhere how many tags were purchased VS filled? The only stats I ever remember seeing are the number of deer checked in and then the DNR seems to say it's because of less participation etc. I'd really like to know how many UNFILLED tags there are per year and would be especially interested in how many were purchased right before gun season started.
 

bluedog

Junior Member
Brock, thank you for posting that history of the increases in harvest relating to increases in opportunity. Do you remember what year we had the 2 week long gun season??? I'm thinking it was either 1996 or 1997???? What I do remember is how at that time there was a HUGE decrease in deer sightings after that particular season and people around here were PISSED!! I remember there was a huge public meeting held in the county for deer hunters to voice concerns (I did not attend.) But I was doing some looking online for something else and came across an article from 1998 that talked about how that year's gun season was 6 days long (must not have gone to unrestricted Sunday hunting quite yet) and that the first two days were buck or doe and the last four days were buck only. I do kind of remember that. I remember having the discussion back then that it took two years of lower harvest and the deer population (on our farm at least) returned to the same level of sightings as before the 2 week gun season. So if I am remembering correctly, seems like there was an increase opportunity (two week long gun season), followed by a visible decrease in the deer population, followed by a reining in of opportunity (6 day gun season with only two days of being able to shoot does). Does any of this sound right???

Seems like the same thing (sort of ) is happening now but there are some huge differences mainly the increase in archery harvest. So if the reins are going to be pulled back this time, seems like the archers are going to have to be involved too. While I do think the DOW is a hugely political machine and I don't agree with everything they do, I really don't think their goal is to decimate the deer population. While the biologists have to operate within a political environment, I would bet money that their presence provides some semblance of balance to the political machine. You will never have a system in place that is devoid of politics. It just is not going to happen. You have to try and work within the system to make changes. Reality.

Now I just have to comment about some of the comments about this site vs OS. Yep, posts get censored over on OS. I have no part in that and have no idea if the censorship is just or not. There sure seems to be anti-DOW's over there posting in the threads that I read. I do see more positive DOW comments over there than I do over here but I think there is a good reason. You guys may not censor those with dissenting opinions but you sure don't make anyone with positive comments about the DOW feel welcome. Just with in the last day, one person posted something positive about Clint McCoy and was asked if he were on crack or meth. Several others applauded those posts. Mike Rex got called an idiot today. Several people commented on Tonk's radio interview as him "spewing shit" or "spewing filth". Someone made a comment about wanting a smiley of Tonk gagging on his own cock. I've seen other posts where people called a fellow hunter a douche bag. The "f" word is spewed around frequently in its bastardized form but the intent is clear.

I find this language very vulgar and offensive. I cringe when I read it because I know there are 9, 10, 11 year olds etc reading these forums. I find calling people names like idiot or douche bag to be juvenile. I find calling people who don't agree with you names or asking if they are taking drugs to be insulting. You may say that you don't censor dissenting opinions but you don't make it easy for those who don't agree with you to stick around either. You say you don't censor but yet I cannot make a direct link to my hunting blog within this forum. You say you don't censor but you don't make those with unpopular views on this forum feel welcome. I have felt the barbs and I've felt the wrath myself. And yet I'm here because 1. I haven't been kicked off yet and 2. I am not bulletproof but have relatively thick skin.

There are some REALLY REALLY great people over on this forum. It is a shame that there is atmosphere around here that does not allow for people to feel welcome when they don't agree.
 

bowhunter1023

Owner/Operator
Staff member
48,879
274
Appalachia
You're the only regular member that ever complains about this forum. Just pointing that out cause it's about as predictable as Tonk getting flamed when his name is mentioned. I often wonder why you hang around because at times it seems you really dislike it here.

Every one is entitled to their opinion. We all speak ours; just so happens we have a lot of guys with the same opinion. So when we all speak up, it stacks up in a hurry. The member base here isn't exactly composed of people who will hold back for fear of hurting someone's feelings. And we certainly won't censor the masses to appease the minority. Could we be more PC and "sensitive"? Sure. But don't look for me to enforce that any time soon.

I've always looked at it like this: TOO was here before [Insert Latest Person] got butt hurt and we'll be here long after. If you know you have an unpopular opinion, yet offer it any way and get upset at the back lash, the old adage of "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" comes to mind.
 

Milo

Tatonka guide.
8,184
157
If there are 9 and 10 year olds reading this forum, I question their parents involvement in their lives. Having a 9 year old, I feel uniquely qualified to comment. As much as I would love to shield all bad words and items from my children, that's not realistic for their development. This is the real world, if it's not your cup of tea, I'd suggest you order coffee..
 

brock ratcliff

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
24,834
247
The two week gun season was in 1996, Mike Tonkovich's first year at the helm. It was a huge disappointment for the DOW. During the second week (6 days), the percentage of kill was only around 6%. I'm basing this solely on memory, but I believe it to be accurate. What Mike T soon realized was that it is not actually the total number of days of opportunity that kill deer, it's the number of "opening days". Hunters get excited about the first opportunity for any season, and therefore the opening day is historically the big kill day. I've never been one to fall in those ranks, but I rarely miss an opening day. As an example, I hunted every day of our most recent shotgun season even though it rained all day Monday and Tuesday - both of which I hunted every minute of daylight. Still, hunter's tendencies are a factor in the ODOW management plan. The more opening days, the more deer are killed. This is why our "bonus weekend" had a two week separation from our regular shotgun season, and is why Tonkovich would like to see Ohio follow the lead of IL by having two short gun seasons vs one long one as we have traditionally had...he wants more killed.

In regards to pulling back the reigns, that hasn't really happened. Tonkovich has made some moves to give the impression he is, but in truth, he is not. You can point to the trade-off of the bonus weekend for the early antlerless season, however, his goal is to kill does. By looking at the number of deer taken during the years of the bonus weekend, you will see the total number killed decreasing each year it was in place. You could take that as people were losing interest, or you could see it for what I believe it to be; each year there were less available to kill. The last year it was in place, there were roughly 15k deer killed. Of those, slightly more than half were female, for a total of around 7-8k. The DOW's goal is to kill does, so if we initiate a doe only season that nets 7k killed, it's a wash from the DOW's view... and it appears they care that we are running low!

How about the reduction in tags, that looks like the reigns are being pulled from a casual glance doesn't it? Well, it is not actually the DOW showing any real conservatism, as they would like sportsmen to believe. In fact, at one of our casual conversations around the campfire, Joe (Jackalope) pointed out to Mike Tonkovich that the proposed tag reductions would not actually save a single deer's life. The fact is most hunters do not kill multiple deer, so no longer being able to kill 6 in one county makes NO noticeable difference. Tonkovich went on to say he had just spent the previous weekend explaining this very thing to a bunch of angry farm bureau big shots. And he actually said, "But Joe, most hunters are not smart enough to realize it"... it's one of my favorite Tonkovich quotes! :) He actually said that in front of probably 15 members of this forum. Feeling like he is not on our team is not just paranoia. He has earned the impression we have of him. And btw, he is smart, articulate and personable. And a likable guy, but he wants to see more deer killed, and I don't share that sentiment. The aggressive approach to reducing our deer herd mirrors Mike Tonkovich's career with the DOW. It started with his employment and continues today. I can only hope things will change in the near future, but I'm not seeing any signals to indicate it will.

As far as the language folks use on this forum... I'm guilty of saying things here I wouldn't in front of my mother. However, I don't let my kid read it either, at least not yet.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,841
260
.



This first insert was supposed to go last. However i though it so important I moved it to the top.

There are some REALLY REALLY great people over on this forum.
I absolutely agree. We have the greatest members on any forum guaranteed. I have seen more compassion, charitable giving, and selfless service here than I have anywhere else on the net. Many of our members here can attest to the truly heartfelt and caring compassion and assistance shown by others on this forum. Actually, the members of this forum have given probably 100x to other members and families than they ever have to the site itself in donations. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Name me once where on that other site you saw the members gather donations for another member in need. For a family that is hurting from a loss. Or members who have never met in person that will drive across the state to attend a funeral for a member who lost a spouse of family member. I've seen it here. I've seen it many times. I've seen Christmas made when it was looking bleak, I've seen members take up donations to hire a photographer to take family portraits for a member with an aging loved one. I've seen members donate to send a husband and wife on a date night after the loss of their son. I've seen members start a scholarship fund in the honor of a members son who passed away unexpectedly. I've seen honor bracelets worn. I've seen members take a picture hunting with them of another members passed loved one. You're damn right we have some REALLY REALLY great members here. One of the reason we're all so great is we know each other like friends and family. Some of that is due to the disagreements. You see, here we can be our true selves. We don't have to worry about a mod deleting posts contrary to his objective. And if someone will stick around and join in enough to get to know TOO, they will quickly become part of the family too.




Now I just have to comment about some of the comments about this site vs OS. Yep, posts get censored over on OS. I have no part in that and have no idea if the censorship is just or not. There sure seems to be anti-DOW's over there posting in the threads that I read. I do see more positive DOW comments over there than I do over here but I think there is a good reason.

I think there is a good reason for that also. I believe it might have something to do with the fact that over there a moderator is allowed to post a thread and say quite blatantly that he will delete any posts not inline with his objective. Like North Korea anytime you have such an iron fist stifling free speech you're going to get a lot of the speech you're looking for. Mrex is BFFs with Tonk so it's no surprise that he's going to go to bat for him.




You guys may not censor those with dissenting opinions but you sure don't make anyone with positive comments about the DOW feel welcome. Just with in the last day, one person posted something positive about Clint McCoy and was asked if he were on crack or meth. Several others applauded those posts.

All we can see is the post and we can't see the posters anterior motives. It however perks the interest when you have someone make their first post ever in such a manner. That doesn't strike you as odd or perhaps at the very least having an anterior motive? We allow disagreements, we allow quite spirited debate, and we don't delete posts contrary to our opinions. However, if someone wants to make such a post they should be ready to defend their position with sound logic or at a minimum spirited debate. Posting "I like barack Obama because he's cool and I met him once" as your first post then quietly slipping away into oblivion without defending such a post will undoubtedly result in ribbing and an expected outcome. We have gone round and round many times on this very topic. Kaiser, Gern, MK111, and Lundy and us have had some VERY spirited debates over the years about the DOW, deer numbers, Tonk and other topics to do with the decline. Yet here they are, still posting, still friends, and I would like to think we're all a little better off and knowledgeable for those debates. I guess what I'm saying is, If you're going to make a point, especially a controversial one, expect to be taken up on it. Hopefully when the dust settles we're all better off for it.



Mike Rex got called an idiot today. Several people commented on Tonk's radio interview as him "spewing shit" or "spewing filth". Someone made a comment about wanting a smiley of Tonk gagging on his own cock. I've seen other posts where people called a fellow hunter a douche bag.

Shit happens. People have opinions, emotions, and expressed feelings. Some of it in jest, some of it serious. If I could go back and write down all the things I've been called Santas list would look like a scrap of paper.


The "f" word is spewed around frequently in its bastardized form but the intent is clear. I find this language very vulgar and offensive. I cringe when I read it because I know there are 9, 10, 11 year olds etc reading these forums. I find calling people names like idiot or douche bag to be juvenile. I find calling people who don't agree with you names or asking if they are taking drugs to be insulting.

No one under the age of 13 is allowed to register on the forum. This doesn't mean they can't read it though as reading is open to the public. But so are other sites on this crazy thing we call the internet. Far, far, far worse sites are out there. As a side tidbit Sapceballs, caddyshack, and bettlejuice all contained the word fuck and were rated PG. I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not going to censor this site because a parent failed to monitor their child's internet usage. Not our responsibility. If a member has issue with another members consistent language they can set that user to ignore and never see their posts again.


You may say that you don't censor dissenting opinions but you don't make it easy for those who don't agree with you to stick around either. You say you don't censor but you don't make those with unpopular views on this forum feel welcome. I have felt the barbs and I've felt the wrath myself. And yet I'm here because 1. I haven't been kicked off yet and 2. I am not bulletproof but have relatively thick skin.

1. Disagreeing with people will never get you kicked off TOO. Arguing with people will never get you kicked off too. Interesting fact. In almost 5 years only two members have ever been banned from TOO. Mountaineer and some guy who out of the blue started posting Anti-Jew posts everyday. The anti-Jew one is a no brainer and the Mountaineer one was, well, if you read his posts or know of him, enough said. If every person here who got in a disagreement didn't stick around, nobody would be here. Sometimes we disagree, sometimes we argue, but nine times out of ten it's for a good cause and we all take some knowledge from the thread in general and continue to be friends.






You say you don't censor but yet I cannot make a direct link to my hunting blog within this forum.
Contributing members are welcome to post links in their signature. Off the top pf my head Curran has a link to his blog in his signature. You are welcome to post a link to your blog on TOO. However, If you're speaking abut your blog on OS that's another story and doesn't have anything to do with you but rather the bad blood between the other site owner and I. This isn't censorship but rather not wanting to help out what was once your competition.
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
39,721
248
Ohio
Now I just have to comment about some of the comments about this site vs OS. Yep, posts get censored over on OS. I have no part in that and have no idea if the censorship is just or not. There sure seems to be anti-DOW's over there posting in the threads that I read. I do see more positive DOW comments over there than I do over here but I think there is a good reason. You guys may not censor those with dissenting opinions but you sure don't make anyone with positive comments about the DOW feel welcome. Just with in the last day, one person posted something positive about Clint McCoy and was asked if he were on crack or meth. Several others applauded those posts. Mike Rex got called an idiot today. Several people commented on Tonk's radio interview as him "spewing shit" or "spewing filth". Someone made a comment about wanting a smiley of Tonk gagging on his own cock. I've seen other posts where people called a fellow hunter a douche bag. The "f" word is spewed around frequently in its bastardized form but the intent is clear.

I find this language very vulgar and offensive. I cringe when I read it because I know there are 9, 10, 11 year olds etc reading these forums. I find calling people names like idiot or douche bag to be juvenile. I find calling people who don't agree with you names or asking if they are taking drugs to be insulting. You may say that you don't censor dissenting opinions but you don't make it easy for those who don't agree with you to stick around either. You say you don't censor but yet I cannot make a direct link to my hunting blog within this forum. You say you don't censor but you don't make those with unpopular views on this forum feel welcome. I have felt the barbs and I've felt the wrath myself. And yet I'm here because 1. I haven't been kicked off yet and 2. I am not bulletproof but have relatively thick skin.

There are some REALLY REALLY great people over on this forum. It is a shame that there is atmosphere around here that does not allow for people to feel welcome when they don't agree.

BLOG: I cannot speak for the owners/moderators here. I do feel if you are having a problem posting in the blog section, they would assist you in making it happen.

EDIT: Jackalope just said what I thought he would. If it isn't supporting another site, I knew he wouldn't have an issue.



KIDS: I would agree with Milo on the language. As the parent of 10,13, and 14yr old children, I monitor their internet activities. All computers have passwords and parental controls. Our daughter's computer is open. She knows at any time we will (and have) randomly told her to bring her computer to us so we could look through her stuff. She is a good girl and hasn't given us a reason to be concerned. Random checks keep her honest and let her know we are monitoring.

LANGUAGE: Like Brock, I have certainly said things on here I would probably hang my head in shame if my parents read. Then again, I have seen and done things in the military and on the volunteer fire department that would make them ashamed. I have also seen and done things which would make them proud if they knew about them. Life has a way of callousing us. We become cynical. We get lax in our disciplines. In like crowds, we tend to fall into what is the norm. TOO is pretty relaxed. I tend to be "loosened up" on TOO. "Locker room talk" happens around here. Probably does scare off some. Others it makes feel welcome.

There are some REALLY REALLY great people over on this forum. It is a shame that there is atmosphere around here that does not allow for people to feel welcome when they don't agree.

Yes. There are some darn good people over here. There is a lot of wisdom and education to be gained. I have seen people disagree. I know there are people on here who don't agree fully on every topic. Some speak their mind. Some don't. Most still contribute. With a self moderating forum (and no censorship) there are times people get their feelings hurt. Other times, they respectfully disagree and move on. Been on both sides of this. Personally, I enjoy seeing a differing opinion. Despite the fact I am sure you are thinking "I am going to get bashed for this" you still posted your opinion. To me this is cool. I appreciate the insight. I appreciate seeing differing views. You have me thinking I should clean up my words. I probably will for a few weeks before slipping back into the locker room.


CENSORSHIP: On "the other site", people cannot speak their mind. Differing views get locked or deleted. Personally, I like a site where I can speak my mind. I like a site where the owners know how to hunt rather than advertise to the point the site is as slow as rush hour traffic/gridlock in LA. I like seeing a picture of the owner in front of a nice buck versus the owner wearing a salmon colored shirt holding a forkhorn. In my mind, your different perspective is alright. Nobody forces you to log on. Hopefully you continue to login so we can get different perspectives on things. At least you know you won't get deleted or censored.
 
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MK111

"Happy Hunting Grounds in the Sky"
Supporting Member
6,551
66
SW Ohio
Here-here as the British would say. When written Joe and it's good to remind everyone at times. And I even got my name mentioned. LOL
Keep up the good work. If one can speak their opinions without the fear of censorship it's good for everyone.
I don't agree with everything that's written and I sure as hell don't like golf but I don't want to ban it. Well maybe.
 

Bigslam51

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
25,778
127
Stark County
It was me who asked the poster if he was on crack, it was a joke. His whole post had me laughing so I just had to ask. I called mrex an idiot also, although he's probably not an idiot, he's just guilty by association. I also said that tonk was spewing shit, I did not listen to the interview do to work, but I guarantee he was in fact, spewing shit. I like this place, this is the only Ohio hunting forum, or any hunting forum, that I've ever been a member of, and it will be my one and only. The guys on here are real, straight up, honest people. I've met a few at the bowhunting supershow in Columbus. This ain't no sugar coated, moderated, censored, mommas boy type atmosphere. It gets told like it is, like it or not. And I like it. Thanks for letting me stick around guys :D
 

dante322

*Supporting Member*
5,506
157
Crawford county
Back to the original intent of the thread.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Tonk made no bones about the fact his goal was to reduce the herd, he didn't side step it, he made it clear. Was this goal because, as a biologist, he felt the herd was beyond the carrying capacity of the habitat? Or was it a darker more political driven goal being driven by the insurance companies and the farm board? That I can't say, but it is obvious the mission is accomplished. Nothing we can do about the path that has been taken. All we can do is maintain what we now have. I agree with brock that my personal impression of Tonk is that he is a smart, likeable guy. But the same could be said about Obama during his first campaign.

I like mrex. I've spoke to him a few times and he is a very likeable knowledgeable guy. I do have to wonder why it is he can't see what the trend of the statewide herd is though. I don't know hown much hunting he does outside of his bubble of private property that be can manage, but if he was to get out more he might be able to see the true state of things. We don't all have prime acreage to ourselves. It would be nice if he would post here a bit more, not so much for the debates about the dnr, but because his knowledge could be considered very helpful to some of the newer hunters that come here for advice.

As far as the language and behaviour around here. It is what it is. In the age of the internet, it would take me about 30 seconds to find countless other sites who's content is much much worse than it is here. The lack of censorship on this site leaves the door open for some really disturbin content. I'd have to say that, all things considered, we actually aren't that bad.

I do have to say that we are not the only ones noticing this trend. I hear it at work, the local sporting goods store, while talking to other hunters, ... it's becoming obvious to even those uneducated hunters that Tonk was referring too. Everybody across the board is seeing fewer deer. Most are angry about it because they are used to being able to kill at will and that simply isn't the case any more. All are saying there needs to be a way to open up access to areas that have been unhunted but I don't see a way for that to happen due to the fact that most of these places are privately owned and you can't force a landowner to allow hunting.
for my part, I'm OK with where we are now. I understand the principles of carrying capacity and healthy habitat. I have been arguing this point with my non hunting neighbor for years. If we don't hunt them they will die anyway because of disease and starvation because there are to many of them for the available habitat. I don't see as many as I would like to see, but I see enough to keep me interested and entertained. I know which property I can pull a doe from for the freezer and which one I need to leave them be. That being said, there does need to be measures taken to halt the decline and maintain the herd. Most of the guys I talk to fall into the category of " I'm allowed to kill three does so that's what I'm gonna do" these guys don't understand why they aren't seeing as many as they used to and they are the reason the regulations need to be adjusted.
 

Lundy

Member
1,307
127
.
1. Disagreeing with people will never get you kicked off TOO. Arguing with people will never get you kicked off too.

.

I have strongly held opinions that certainly don't always mesh with the majority of the members here or the ownership group, especially one of them However the spirited debates, even being called a DNR plant, or my opinion doesn't count because I am a gun hunter, have not interfered with the honest debates with back and forth information. Most times we will agree to disagree, but It is not personal, at least not with me. I enjoy the spirited support of opposing views, it offers a perspective I may not have considered. All in all it has been a positive experience, even my debates with Jackofflope.

The problem may be the some are a little too sensitive and get their feelings hurt when they offer an opinion that is not popular and they get pushback or they have trouble defending their opinion. If there is blood in the water and you can't fight back you will get eaten.

All websites have a different model. As a original owner of a outdoors website, now with over 50,000 members, you establish the framework of the site operating model and put rules in place to keep activity within your defined boundaries. For us it eliminated religious or political discussion, acceptable language and member interaction thresholds were defined. That is what we wanted for that site. However each site is unique in what it wants to offer to it's membership. People should accept that when they visit a site that they are entering someone's private home and you follow their rules and guidelines, not complain about the rules while you are visiting. No one forces anyone to visit, anyone is free to go at their choice at anytime. I will never question why a site is the way it is or isn't but rather make my decision of if I want to participate or move on to somewhere else. TOO was started to deliver a product that they felt wasn't available elsewhere and has been very successful, take it or leave it, it is what it is because they want it to be this way.
 
People should accept that when they visit a site that they are entering someone's private home and you follow their rules and guidelines, not complain about the rules while you are visiting. No one forces anyone to visit, anyone is free to go at their choice at anytime. I will never question why a site is the way it is or isn't but rather make my decision of if I want to participate or move on to somewhere else. TOO was started to deliver a product that they felt wasn't available elsewhere and has been very successful, take it or leave it, it is what it is because they want it to be this way.

Completely agree. Being a moderator on a once popular site full of rules, new rules, catering to sponsors, censorship, etc. had it's share of headaches and not having to worry about that any more has been such a relief. The censorship part is what gets me for the most part and seeing it to such a degree as stated on OS in opening paragraphs of a thread is just ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. That's catering to someone....
 

Boarhead

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
Damn got called it on my meth lab comment.Like Bigslam said it was a joke and I am not gonna apologize for it.Maybe where you hunt blue dog it is great but most of us on Too have seen a big decline in deer numbers.
I'm sure your buddy Clint is a descent person but the more he is with Tonk the more he will be like Tonk.
As for your other forum if you like having someone controlling what you can and can't say have at it and enjoy your time there.
I like what Joe and Jesse have going here at Too and have met some great people that I consider friends.
We all at one time or another might get a kick in the ass about something here but hey at the end of the day at least we can put our big boy pants on and just move on.No hard feelings.
As for M Rex I'm sure he is descent also but seems to me he can't handle the heat in the kitchen case in point I have not seen HIM on here in a looong time.JMO
 

MK111

"Happy Hunting Grounds in the Sky"
Supporting Member
6,551
66
SW Ohio
Great comments and thoughts. None of theses posts would be permitted on the other gun forum I so loved in the past. FYI I did post my rare piebald turkey pictures over there and drawed some unwanted heat. Then got a polite warning to "play nice". It will be their loss not mine in the future from my leaving.
Like everyone said "if you don't like it leave it". I'll stay and thank you.
 

MK111

"Happy Hunting Grounds in the Sky"
Supporting Member
6,551
66
SW Ohio
A what-a-be expert who has a BIL that studied wildlife in College. And the BIL works with experts who say piebald turkeys are only a crossbred with domestic turkeys. I then posted the link that showed up in my turkey post to prove a point that piebald (smoke phase) are real.
I got shot down when I posted that research should be done before posting about something you knew little about.
Anyways I'm done over there. I don't conform to censorship.


huh?!

What was the problem with posting pics of a really cool looking bird like that?