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Interesting read

Jackalope

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Thanks for sharing. Kind of give me a small amount of hope.

Not I. When you look a the big picture it becomes blatantly clear what we're dealing with. We can talk ohio, blame Tonk, and discuss reasons for our decline. But these are all symptoms of the disease. The truth is deer hunting is under attack by a force that transcends state borders. One whose interest, reach, and power can hit every top deer hunting state. A coordinated attack and manipulation of deer management leaders across the Midwest. It only goes to show that we were right all along and our DNR has been overtaken like a puppet by politicians beheld to farm bureaus and insurance companies.

And the reality is no organization who has with the power capable of taking on the DNR going to do anything about it. They've spent tons of time and money building their organization and a good relationship with the DNR. They operate on a higher level and have great connections at the DNR. Yet you will NEVER see them take on the DNR in a fight to increase deer numbers. To do so would likely damage their relationship and cause them to loose connections. Nope. They're perfectly content slapping the DNR on the back and being friends. After all. Thats beneficial for both parties.
 
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Jackalope

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For example. Not to pick on them exclusively, just an example. Let's look at an Ohio organization with strong ties to the DNR. The Buckeye Big Buck Club or BBBC. An organization with great interest in Ohio's Trophy Whitetail.

Part of their mission statement from their website.

""The purpose of this non-profit organization is to increase the appreciation of Ohio's white-tailed deer herd, which due to a comprehensive and successful management program of the Division of Wildlife, and improved habitat, is now at a record high level. The clubs goals are to: encourage trophy hunting by Ohio hunters, establish and maintain a permanent record of Ohio's trophy deer taken in fair chase, foster wise management of this valuable resource, and promote a positive relationship among hunter and landowners. ""

Have you see anything from the BBBC in relation to the DNRs drastic reduction of Ohio's deer numbers? One would think that's something that directly impacts their entries and membership. I haven't. I've actually seen quite the opposite. Former President and today's Secretary/Treasurer was at one time a hugely outspoken critic of the DNRs reduction efforts in the Mid 90s. Today, he's good friends with people in high places at the DNR. The organization has a great relationship with the DNR whose head deer management biologist often attends their banquets. One would think they'd be elbow deep in the DNR over this reduction that impacts their members. In fact I've seen quite the opposite, often sticking up for them and making excuses. Self proclaimed onetime most outspoken critic, today's most outspoken friend.

The problem is going after the DNR will not make you many friends in high places. Most of these organization with the capabilities to raise their voice won't, as it would be directly impactful to their relationship with the DNR and ultimately hurt their friendship. At the end of the day it's about growing the organization and maintaining relations.
 
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brock ratcliff

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I'm thrilled to see him write this! I've begged him to share his thoughts publicly on the matter. Joe, you and I crying about it has done little (nothing) to change things. Having public figures actually discussing it at this point is certainly a step in the right direction. Speaking with Dr. Dave back in February gave me a sick feeling as his outlook was as bleak as our's has been...but at least there are others with some influence actually looking into it now.
 

MK111

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Joe sorry to say you hit the nail squarely on the head. Well written. So many times people in charge won't setup as it would rock their little world at the expense of everyone else.
 

brock ratcliff

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Joe, you bring up an interesting point. As you know, Mrex spoke with 100 or so of their membership personally a couple of years ago regarding the downward trend. He told me that across the board, the sentiment from their membership was that the herd was not only down, but way down. It would seem to me that an organization such as the BBBC would be interested in promoting a healthy herd, the problem is the term "healthy" is relative. They can say that a large herd is not "healthy", and therefore as an organization, they support the DOW's previous moves to severely cut the herd numbers...even though they don't know how many there were/are. Mrex will tell you that he was the DOW's biggest critic, but no longer is due to him getting to know those making the decisions, and his faith in their ability. Perhaps. However, his faith is not reflected by the views of an ever-growing number of Ohio's sportsmen, and I suspect not by the majority of the membership of the BBBC. Then again, that is just my guess, and according to Mrex, a guy that makes a living "flipping pizzas", probably does not have the mental capability to make a simple observation. :)
 

Jackalope

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Joe, you bring up an interesting point. As you know, Mrex spoke with 100 or so of their membership personally a couple of years ago regarding the downward trend. He told me that across the board, the sentiment from their membership was that the herd was not only down, but way down. It would seem to me that an organization such as the BBBC would be interested in promoting a healthy herd, the problem is the term "healthy" is relative. They can say that a large herd is not "healthy", and therefore as an organization, they support the DOW's previous moves to severely cut the herd numbers...even though they don't know how many there were/are. Mrex will tell you that he was the DOW's biggest critic, but no longer is due to him getting to know those making the decisions, and his faith in their ability. Perhaps. However, his faith is not reflected by the views of an ever-growing number of Ohio's sportsmen, and I suspect not by the majority of the membership of the BBBC. Then again, that is just my guess, and according to Mrex, a guy that makes a living "flipping pizzas", probably does not have the mental capability to make a simple observation. :)

I agree, "healthy" is very subjective. On the other hand, it's simple logic to understand that lower doe populations means less bucks. We have to produce enough bucks that non trophy hunters have horns to shoot at, coyotes have button bucks to eat, and enough survive soccer moms mini van. Age and genetics makes trophy bucks. Genetics doesn't do a ton of good if the bucks aren't living long enough to reach maturity. The biggest impact is having a lower pool of bucks with the same number of hunters and other impacts. Doesn't take a biologist to know less will make it to maturity and thus impact the trophy ability of the state.
 

brock ratcliff

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:smiley_clap:

And if the little guy tries to fight it, might as well get yourself an attorney...

There is nothing to be done as far as "fighting it". The only thing we can do is control our own actions. In my neck of the woods, there are a lot less people out there working to fill every tag available. It's hard enough to fill one. The thought of trying to fill a pocket full of them is now absurd. I only know one guy that shot a bunch of 'em this year. Seth was in the shop when I told the fella it doesn't hurt to practice a little conservation... and I think most are getting that picture now. I fully understand that in areas there are still a lot of deer. That isn't the case everywhere. I am glad that at least finally there are others that have recognized there is an issue in areas, and perhaps our wildlife agencies do not always have a finger on the pulse of the deer herd. We dang near wiped em off the face of my county before there was a reduction in tags. Hopefully, that won't be the case anywhere else.
 

Jackalope

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There is nothing to be done as far as "fighting it". The only thing we can do is control our own actions. In my neck of the woods, there are a lot less people out there working to fill every tag available. It's hard enough to fill one. The thought of trying to fill a pocket full of them is now absurd. I only know one guy that shot a bunch of 'em this year. Seth was in the shop when I told the fella it doesn't hurt to practice a little conservation... and I think most are getting that picture now. I fully understand that in areas there are still a lot of deer. That isn't the case everywhere. I am glad that at least finally there are others that have recognized there is an issue in areas, and perhaps our wildlife agencies do not always have a finger on the pulse of the deer herd. We dang near wiped em off the face of my county before there was a reduction in tags. Hopefully, that won't be the case anywhere else.

Agreed. We just need that sentiment to catch on statewide. The problem is it'll take their populations reaching the point of almost total decimation before that happens. I can just hear the lever being racked now on the new Marlins and Winchesters. Outside Athens county where Mike says they have great numbers (and I agree) the last doe I shot is when you and I hunted. That's been what, 5-6 years ago now? Where I hunt the deer numbers are fantastic. Although they did see a decline this season. My fear is when the numbers drop elsewhere the hunters will move in there too. Like any predator, or the nomadic hunters of the past, we go where the game is.
 

brock ratcliff

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Just for reference, Athens Co is way down too...but there are still a lot of deer there. "A lot" being relative, of course. In relation to Fayette, or northern Highland, there are a lot! Several times people have said to me that I should just go where the deer are. That misses the point. When I moved to this area in 1994, there were deer all over the place. There weren't so many that people complained (at least that I ever heard), but there were plenty to make the hunting really, really good. I can't for the life of me figure out why those days cannot return...