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Thoughts?

brock ratcliff

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I hunt in the lowest kill county in the entire state. It isn't the only place I hunt, but it is where I spend the greatest amount of time late October through November. I LOVE this particular property. Part of the reason for my affection is probably because it is the first place I started hunting regularly when I moved to the area nearly 20 years ago. Partly it may be because I've had a pretty fair amount of success there. Though it has never been high-density, I've never really felt handicapped by hunting it as I feel like I have the best habitat available in a habitat-poor county. As any of you that have read my hunt journal the last two seasons will know, I have seen a ton of deer on the property the last couple of seasons, though most are a LONG way off due to the open agricultural area. Still, it's a fun place for me because I do see them, even if they are a long way off.

I started snaring coyotes a few years back with the intent of helping our fawns. It seems to have made a huge difference as I am again seeing a good percentage of adult does with fawns in tow. I started my annual coyote adventure this past Sunday by hanging snares on well used coyote trails, around the few dens I've found. These snares are spread relatively thinly over an area that is about a mile wide by 2 miles deep. I've covered a lot of ground, really, and have been making my rounds every day since Sunday via a quad. Interestingly, in the past 5 days, I have not seen a single deer track....NONE. I've been in woodlots, along fence rows, across open field travel routes, NOTHING.

I call the landowner about every day on my way up. He has a good deal of down time this year as his equipment is pretty much ready for spring planting. He usually jumps on his Gator and tags along. Even when I'm not there, he is usually out fooling around somewhere on the ground every day. He told me he hasn't seen a deer track for three weeks, at least now. Today, he and I went about a mile up the road from the property I've been running around on. It is the closest cover to the main property. It is a 68 acre woods, thick as heck. I had never been in it until today, but the landowner has spent his entire life (he's 60) in the area and knows it well. We decided to run over there after I asked him where he would go if he were a deer suffering through this weather...and he saw a big herd of deer just outside of this woodlot a few weeks ago. We rode completely around the perimeter of woodlot without seeing a single deer track! We parked at one end, went in a few hundred yards and milled about. We may have walked around in a 10 acre area, not thoroughly, just strolling through. We found the remains of 3 deer, two of which were freshly killed, blood all over the snow, etc. There was not a single fresh deer track to be found!

I've held a theory for years that deer in this agricultural area are nearly migratory. A week before I started hunting this year, there was very little sign in the area I hunt. I started hunting when the deer moved in. Years ago, when we had substantially more deer in the area, there would always be a few deer around, even after the majority had moved on. That doesn't seem to be the case now. Think about this; over the last 5 days, I've been through 2 tanks of fuel on my four wheeler, and haven't seen a deer track - in areas that should hold deer in this weather, the landowner still has a pile of corn out too!

I'm just curious as to what some of you may think. Would you find it more likely that EVERY deer in the area has simply moved on and someone somewhere is seeing every deer for miles (keep in mind, I checked the next piece of substantial cover for miles just today, and saw NOTHING), or would you have a sick feeling knowing the only sign of deer you've seen in the last week is the three dead ones you found today?

I've probably got as much experience hunting in what most would term a wasteland as anyone, but this still has me scratching my head a little... Input and theories welcome!
 

LonewolfNopack

Junior Member
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The woods
Brock,

I experience very similar things at my end of the wasteland in Highland county. I see ZERO sign of deer this time of year all the way up until the middle of October. It is like they are there for two months and are then gone. Many are killed during season by asshole neighbors, but the remainers dont stick around and dont come back until rut. Its weird as hell. I have had two cameras up the past two weeks over fresh corn and only got a pic of one small doe. This is in an isolated area of awesome habitat amongst a sea of black desert.
 

reo

Junior Member
484
68
N.E. Ohio
I am leaning towards yotes killing/running them out of the area as they congregated (yarded) in the best habitat available in this weather. Have the yotes moved on as well?

I am of the belief that much of our deer herd, as adaptable as they are, have not yet learned how to cope with coyotes.
 

brock ratcliff

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Coyotes are using the farm(s). I've found a few den sites. They aren't settled in yet, but are setting up shop. Sunday, there were fresh yote tracks, but they are still transient for the most part. I expect them to become more localized in the next few weeks.

The amount of deer-less real estate I've covered this week is absurd. And honestly, I don't think anyone has/had more sightings than I have the last two falls, certainly not in this area. The reason I have so much faith in my honey hole is it really is by appearance the BEST habitat available for miles in any direction. Even now, there is food and dense cover available, yet its empty.
 
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finelyshedded

You know what!!!
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In your situation Brock, if feel they have yarded up into large groups but to have not found a single track in all that driving and in that large of area!WOW! That is scary! I agree the yotes aren't helping and have probably pushed them off and killed what was left behind but I bet somewhere within 5 miles there's a large herd of deer running together.

I know many areas have very low deer numbers though! As I have bitched and complained several times before, I rarely see deer anymore while driving. I have seen quite a few tracks in areas near my house while shed hunting but Fugg, as long as we've had snow on the ground a pair of does could make any AG field look like there's a lot of deer! I have also noticed I see yote tracks in nearly every field I walk whether I see a deer track or not. As a matter of fact I see a lot of dog tracks as well.

Just wanted to mention, as I drove through your county along St. Rt. 22 I could not believe how great the deer habitat looked but never saw a live one during my 3 plus hour drive to and from my moms house on Christmas...both ways!!!
 

Redhunter1012

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Are there large groups that go through everything running coyotes? That happens around my area a bit. Usually after muzzleloader season it's a good chance any fresh poweder and there will be 20 vehicle groups running every woods in the area for yotes, which IMO is a good thing. But most times the herds get moved so far away it's spring/summer before you see any sign of them returning
 

bthompson1004

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Are there large groups that go through everything running coyotes? That happens around my area a bit. Usually after muzzleloader season it's a good chance any fresh poweder and there will be 20 vehicle groups running every woods in the area for yotes, which IMO is a good thing. But most times the herds get moved so far away it's spring/summer before you see any sign of them returning

X2....Only time I saw deer on the property I hunt is summer/fall...after youth season I never saw a single deer...only one time did I find a deer bed with scat around it...now I know when I should be hunting that place!

One of the trespassers I caught out there, was riding around the woods I hunt in his gator...he mentioned that he was just looking for coyote/fox signs...He said he has seen a few yotes run across the street into the woodlot I hunt...He seemed to know a lot about those animals...I have seen what could very well be a coyote den...don't know anything about them or what to look for but I need to hang a camera above it and find out for sure....there is literally a sh9it ton of rabbit tracks all over the lot, so there is plenty of food there for the fox and yotes...

similarly, the area holds deer in the early season only for some unknown reason, prbly till shotgun week starts, that is when the trespassing begins too...so that might be the reasons, who knows, I haven't spent that much time out there to really put it all together though...another reason might be the neighbor a few properties south of me has 9 acres of woods that he bow hunts and is likely doing something to help hold deer in his area.
 

brock ratcliff

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To my knowledge there have been no coyote drives or anything else to explain why there are no deer around. The only thing I can come up with is they've gathered up somewhere (but haven't a clue where that would be). Its just strange as heck.
 

yotehunter

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spencerville oh
Sounds like they are yarded up somewhere you just haven't found them. We have the same thing happen every year down hear by me in the heart of ag country. Our deer come from miles and miles to yard up in a large section owned buy a metro park out of Lima. Its about 300 acres of timber and river bottoms. The other day I watched 43 cross the road right in front of me crossing out of there and going to feed. And the same night a friend of mine see another 29 on the other end of the park. And once you drive a mile any direction from the park you won't find a track. We hunt a lot of area with the coyote dogs and we haven't crossed hardly any deer tracks until we get around the park. Ive watched deer go to this sanctuary from five miles away. And come spring they slowly disputes out of there and back to there home turf. I'm fortunate to live and hunt within a mile of this park. Its pretty neat seeing fifty to seventy deer deer every evening out in the fields surrounding the park. I bet they are still out there Brock you just haven't found them yet.
 
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brock ratcliff

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Agreed, yote... They are somewhere. I just can't put a thought on where that would be. Wide open fields for miles in every direction, but if there is better wintering habitat available the deer would know where that is better than do I.
 

yotehunter

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spencerville oh
Agreed, yote... They are somewhere. I just can't put a thought on where that would be. Wide open fields for miles in every direction, but if there is better wintering habitat available the deer would know where that is better than do I.

Any bottoms around or cover close too towns around on the east side of our county they yard up right on the east side Lima. I mean right in town almost.
 
Reading some of this I can't help but think of my experiences up in the UP of Michigan where deer migrate and form yards. There in many places you can actually count on deer vacating areas to travel to well known yarding sites, leaving and even passing up areas that you would think deer could survive in during winters. I remember in my forestry class I had a square mile to manage and early on tromping around with snowshoes I found some great cedar swamps and thick browse, but not a single deer track. There were great rubs and visible trails but nothing for a long time. As winter broke slowly but surely the deer started showing up. Back then there weren't too many predators either as the coyote weren't real thick and it was before all the wolves started re-populating.

Migration could very well be a possibility for your area but knowing the terrain down there and the descriptions of your property and the surrounding properties that part doesn't make sense. My theory after reading this is that there is enough pressure from coyotes to cause the deer to herd up, safety in numbers. Your landowner's sightings kind of confirm this. Add in the (3) recent kills you found and you have plenty of reason for that herd to move long distances in search of safety and perhaps other deer, again safety in numbers.

I also was going to say perhaps someone is feeding the crap out of them but when you mentioned the landowner having a pile of corn that threw that theory out. Unless the coyotes were using that as a place to ambush them they should have been using that some.

On the habitat side of things, what kinds of browse exist on your place and the other farms? A good example of a place being thick but provides very little in winter feed would be a crab apple thicket, unless of course there are still crab apples on the trees/ground. Browse like maple saplings, honesuckle, sumac, etc. is what I am talking about. Also, what kinds of oaks do you have in the area and how was the crop this year?
 

brock ratcliff

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The area is just weird! There is one burr oak that has been a money spot in producing years to get early season trail cam pics. This year, there were thousands of big acorns laying on the ground until early November. That was a new one for me as it usually gets hammered starting in September! We did not even hunt the place until late October this season because there were very few deer there. When they showed up, they were everywhere. Then, poof, they're gone. It wasn't this way years ago...

The areas main watershed (and bottomland) flows through the north end of the property. There is nothing along the creek. Sumac, honeysuckle, mapple cover the property as a good portion of it was timered 30 years ago. Lots of osage apples laying on the ground completely undisturbed too, and in years past I recall them being eaten in late season. There is food literally everywhere, still a good deal of waste grain available though it wouldn't have been easily accesible with the snow and ice cover we've had. The landowner even left a couple of acres of soybeans standing. I had told him deer would mow them down this winter if conditions were harsh ----they haven't touched them!

You asked about the surrounding area; I cannot think of ANY more sutable habitat for miles in any direction. The adjoining property has about 1 mile of the same crrekbed running through it. It is quite possible that landowner is keeping them well fed and the deer are yarded on his property. With the severe temps/weather we've had, they simply wouldn't move far from food. That's my vest guess at this point. I told my landowner yesterday that I expect (hope) to start seeing deer again with the weather breaking. I suspect those missing, yarded up deer have a case of "cabin fever" too.

I really believe these disappearing acts are just something I'm going to have to get used to with the population being so much lower there than it once was. There would always be times when they would get sparse, I just don't remember ever covering this much ground without cutting a single track. Still, as long as their "migration" lands them on the place for the first few weeks of November each year, I'll deal with it!

Here is another interesting observation from yesterday. I've said for years that the farm was a "bedroom" for the rut. Around Halloween, really, really good bucks show up from only God knows where. I've always said I don't know where they come from or where they go when its over, but they leave! The woodlots on the farm will have hundreds of rubs pop up in those few weeks. I assumed it was the same in surrounding woodlots. However, the 68 acre woods we went into yesterday had very, very few. I think I saw two... I wouldn't be surprised if the fellas that hunt that woods are left scratching their heads wondering where their big boys disappear to in November! :)

If deer didn't throw these curve balls, they wouldn't be so interesting.
 

COB-TY

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Brock not sure where your area is and it really doesn't matter. I don't get out near as much as I used to around home. But in years past Brenda and I have seen many deer in our yard and on our road. The past couple of year we have not seen one deer! We have a couple of trees in the front yard that bear a little berries, birds have been thick around those tree with all the snow and there used to deer tracks every where. Not that first one this year. Regardless what the odnr says there are fewer deer!
 

yotehunter

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spencerville oh
This has been a weird year all the way around IMO. The rut seemed it was 2 maybe 3 days around here , really short around here. I know numbers are way down but I'm sure when you find one you will find the vast majority of your local herd. I did see several smaller bunches last night before dark last night. Makes me wonder if they weren't breaking back up a little. As far as the yotes bothering them, I'm sure they are after the weak , but where our deer are yarded I know the coyotes are right there with them but they don't seem to leave this sanctuary until the are ready. The coyotes don't seem to run them off. IMO human presence would move them before the coyotes would. Good luck in finding them .
 

brock ratcliff

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I've done all the looking for deer I'm going to right now. I wasn't actually looking for them anyway, I've been starting my snare line for coyotes. The lack of deer has just been an interesting side observation. Haven't a clue where they go, but I'll expect to find one good one next November. :).

Ted, this in Fayette Co., the lowest deer kill county in the state. As you know I'm very familiar with your neck of the woods having grown up there. My brother, Steve, still lives and hunts there. He doesn't see them like we did when we were kids... And no one was complaining because there were too many then!
 

jagermeister

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The deer are yarded up stronger this year than most years in the past 3-5. The deer I'm seeing are in very large herds, and some herds are in unusual places too. Saw a big herd a few nights ago behind a farm that really made me scratch my head. The next day the same spot was covered in ducks and geese. Theres food there... Lots of it... Although if you were to just drive by randomly you'd never know it.