Mike Tonkovich

hickslawns · Oct 16, 2013

LonewolfNopack said:
Maybe. But I would rather try and fail then not try at all. I can guarentee you a presence of 100 coordinated hunters walking in that door at the same time, with the same message, would not be forgotten. Heck, I went in there once alone, and it dam sure hasn't been forgotten.

Last year I went to the open house. There were a couple representatives from Whitetail Unlimited in line in front of me. They were representing one local chapter. Hard to remember exact number, but they had a sheet of signatures which was not short. They were handed the same excuses as everyone else. You sure you want to show up with 100 or more guys on a unified front? No matter how peaceful and docile you behave, those fellas in uniform are going to feel nervous and intimidated. Why do that just to hear the same answer as the guy in line in front of you? Our open house was local WO, District officers, etc., but nobody with the clout to change things above them in the food chain. I am not sure Mike T has the clout to change things. I am not so sure the decisions aren't already made and it is Mike T's job to attempt to sway them.

CritterGitterToo · Oct 16, 2013

Jackalope said:
The thing is these open house are design for no other reason but to make you believe that they actually give a shit. They don't. It's all for show. The only way you're going to get to the DNR is through the governors office or house and senate seats. Chris Weidner the state republican Who started the letter to the DNR against closing bonus gun season took in over $90,000 in campaign funds from farm and insurance groups. Until you can buy him and the other 40 senators that showed up to put the heat on the DNR. 100, 200, 300 rednecks at an open house will continue to be pacified in the order they arrived.

So it sounds like what you are saying is that the big ole insurance company head quartered in Columbus that we are not suppose to name is going to continue to get their way and there is nothing we can do about it. It's almost as if it doesn't matter what we say, what Mrex says, what Mike T says, it's all just words. They have the power and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

LonewolfNopack · Oct 16, 2013

hickslawns said:
Last year I went to the open house. There were a couple representatives from Whitetail Unlimited in line in front of me. They were representing one local chapter. Hard to remember exact number, but they had a sheet of signatures which was not short. They were handed the same excuses as everyone else. You sure you want to show up with 100 or more guys on a unified front? No matter how peaceful and docile you behave, those fellas in uniform are going to feel nervous and intimidated. Why do that just to hear the same answer as the guy in line in front of you? Our open house was local WO, District officers, etc., but nobody with the clout to change things above them in the food chain. I am not sure Mike T has the clout to change things. I am not so sure the decisions aren't already made and it is Mike T's job to attempt to sway them.

Not disagreeing that we would be fed the same line of BS. But I also know for a fact that it would leave an impact. If they are intimidated, they should be. It would because they know they are giving us hunters the shaft. And if you want to speak to the man with the plan, attend the district 4 open house. It seems like everyone has already given up after a couple of failed attempts. Maybe deer in you all's area isn't as sparse as they are in mine, but I can't afford to give up if I want to keep hunting deer in the next 3 years.

Jackalope · Oct 16, 2013

CritterGitterToo said:
So it sounds like what you are saying is that the big ole insurance company head quartered in Columbus that we are not suppose to name is going to continue to get their way and there is nothing we can do about it. It's almost as if it doesn't matter what we say, what Mrex says, what Mike T says, it's all just words. They have the power and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

You got it brother... Lets do a little math.

At our peak in 2003 DVA's were 31,709 and in 2012 20,683 a reduction of 34.78%

Plugging in the numbers below we can see that in 2003 the total cost to insurance companies was $258,303,535 per year

Figure in the 37.78% reduction from 2003-1012 the spend is $168,465,566

A savings of $89,837,969

Say they take 10% of that savings (almost 9 million dollars) and spend it on lobbyist, state senators, the governor, all to put pressure on the DNR to reduce the numbers even further. Keep in mind. The head of the DNR is an appointed position.

They spend 9 million to save almost 90 million. Hell of a return on investment.

If you manage to raise enough money to start putting pressure on your own on individuals, they'll just raise their contributions more.. Right now they can spend close to 90 million before they no longer see a savings from their efforts. The day we as hunters can bring 90 million dollars worth of heat on the head of the DNR is the day he will start listing to us instead of insurance companies.

And this is just vehicle and personal injury. We haven't even gotten in to farm losses. The agricultural industry in Ohio is a 93 billion dollar industry.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vehicle repair cost for DVA's are on Average $2,850 per collision.

Human Injuries average 7.7%.

Of that 7% the breakdown is as follows. 51.4% possible human injuries - 38.4% evident human injuries - 10.3 % for incapacitating or severe human injuries.

The standard costs associated with each injury category, (US$24,418 for possible human injuries, US$46,266 for evident human injuries, and US$231,332 for incapacitating or severe human injuries.

The percentage of white-tailed deer-vehicle collisions resulting in human fatalities was 0.009% in Ohio resulting in a $1,002 cost per DVA total average.

Towing cost $125 per DVA

Jackalope · Oct 16, 2013

LonewolfNopack said:
Not disagreeing that we would be fed the same line of BS. But I also know for a fact that it would leave an impact. If they are intimidated, they should be. It would because they know they are giving us hunters the shaft. And if you want to speak to the man with the plan, attend the district 4 open house. It seems like everyone has already given up after a couple of failed attempts. Maybe deer in you all's area isn't as sparse as they are in mine, but I can't afford to give up if I want to keep hunting deer in the next 3 years.

You can't see the mountain for the trees man. Even if you did manage to get at them, it's already done.

LonewolfNopack · Oct 16, 2013

Jackalope said:
You can't see the mountain for the trees man. Even if you did manage to get at them, it's already done.

Don't agree with that. We can still turn this thing around with proper programmatic changes. Nature responds quickly when given a chance. Do I think those needed changes will happen? Probably not. But I darn sure will keep campaining for them.

Lundy · Oct 16, 2013

Jackalope said:
it's already done.

You and I agree on more and more stuff everyday, glad YOU finally came around

Jackalope · Oct 16, 2013

LonewolfNopack said:
Don't agree with that. We can still turn this thing around with proper programmatic changes. Nature responds quickly when given a chance. Do I think those needed changes will happen? Probably not. But I darn sure will keep campaining for them.

Follow the money (see my above post). Until you can come up with matching funds for lobbyist etc mine and your complaining is just that.

Jackalope · Oct 16, 2013

Lundy said:
You and I agree on more and more stuff everyday, glad YOU finally came around

Since the beginning I have always said they will accomplish their goal. By the time anyone wakes up it'll be too late. My goal is that when they do they know whose fault it was.

brock ratcliff · Oct 16, 2013

Wildlife does have the ability to bounce back, and that is exactly what the DOW is banking on. If you, me, and thousands of others quit hunting due to low numbers, deer will be back like fleas in a relatively short time. The DOW does not want to see that happen, no one does. By nature, hunters will take to the fields again when numbers in depleted areas begin again to thrive. With liberal bags and seasons, we will again knock 'em back. The DOW is relying on the natural predator/prey relationship vs working to establish and maintain a level population. There will be peaks and valleys per their plan. This weekend is a great example of that. Many of us headed down to Strouds not only to enjoy fellowship, but to take advantage of a population of deer. I felt NO guilt whatsoever in shooting a doe, or allowing my kid to shoot two. There is NO WAY I'd allow that to happen here, because we have few deer. While we were just a small portion of hunters, I imagine it will become a trend again over the next few years for people in areas like mine to again travel east to hunt deer. The numbers in those counties will likely be reduced, while the herd in the our home areas will again grow...we aren't there to kill them. It will be a repeat of the herd expansion seen in the 80's. When I started bow hunting in the early 80's, people were amazed that I killed a deer behind my parents' home in Pickaway Co.... Some day in the relatively near future, people will again think it's a rare thing to waste time hunting in those types of counties, I suspect, unless the DOW changes course. The campground at Strouds Run may again be full during shotgun season in the coming years. My kid thinks we should be going to Athens every weekend of the season now...

My hopes of the DOW seeing the error of their ways are completely gone after our chat Saturday evening. I now know that what I feared is true. There is little effort put forth to maintain a balance, it's all a pr act as we go through the downswing of the peak and valley management plan.

The reason I started this thread was to see if others gathered the same thing I did from our talk with Mike T. Please, if someone thinks I heard just what I wanted to hear, straighten me out. MREX, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES ARE DIRECTED AT YOU, IF YOU THINK I'M OFF THE MARK, PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR THOUGHTS...I'm not looking to start another "braintrust argument", I want to know if there was an impression I should have that I missed, and will try to be completely open minded...I SWEAR.

Jackalope · Oct 16, 2013

brock ratcliff said:
My hopes of the DOW seeing the error of their ways are completely gone after our chat Saturday evening. I now know that what I feared is true. There is little effort put forth to maintain a balance, it's all a pr act as we go through the downswing of the peak and valley management plan.

The reason I started this thread was to see if others gathered the same thing I did from our talk with Mike T. Please, if someone thinks I heard just what I wanted to hear, straighten me out. MREX, THE LAST TWO SENTENCES ARE DIRECTED AT YOU, IF YOU THINK I'M OFF THE MARK, PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR THOUGHTS...I'm not looking to start another "braintrust argument", I want to know if there was an impression I should have that I missed, and will try to be completely open minded...I SWEAR.

Exactly what I heard. And to anyone else standing there it was blatantly obvious. As noted by these posts.

finelyshedded · Oct 16, 2013

Yep, pretty much what I HEARD as well! Nothing is going to change, limits were lowered to appease the hunters and if you want to have the NR fees raised, raise hell with the state reps and have a bill passed on it.

I agree with Joe, way too much money being spent on the other team! We'll prolly just have to make sacrifices ourselves and do less deer hunting and more squirrel hunting. Also kill as many yotes as we can.

It would be nice if we all as deer hunting enthusiast could lay off killing the does in deer depleted areas but their are many out there that will do WTF they want.

Curran · Oct 16, 2013

finelyshedded said:
It would be nice if we all as deer hunting enthusiast could lay off killing the does in deer depleted areas but their are many out there that will do WTF they want.

I wasn't around the camp fire, but after talking to a few who were, and reading up on this thread, it pretty much seems like we're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

It just sucks because most of us have hunted long enough to know how good it once was... and we're intelligent enough to see how crappy it's going to get.

Lundy · Oct 16, 2013

finelyshedded said:
It would be nice if we all as deer hunting enthusiast could lay off killing the does in deer depleted areas but their are many out there that will do WTF they want.

The vast majority of hunters are so ill informed that they don't have a clue about populations, trends, harvests, new regulations, etc.

As an example how many did not even know about the 2 day MZ season and of those that did how many did not know it was doe only, even while bowhunting? There were even many on here that didn't know until a very short time before the season about the bowhunting restrictions. If guys on here didn't know what chance does the general hunting public have? zilch.

RedCloud · Oct 16, 2013

Another thing that was said at the camp. EHD

Mike T said it hits bucks harder then does because during those parts of the year when EHD is causing problems bucks are in bachalor groups. If we get the doe numbers TOO low it would only take a couple outbreaks to really screw things up. I think Mike T said that EHD is a 5 or 7 yr cycle ? Get a bigger spread one time and the herd is done for if the doe keep getting slaughtered in already depleated areas. Mike T also said the deer herd is essentially turned over every 1.5 years (might have been 2.5 but pretty sure he said 1.5) as we are not allowing the deer to gain in age so there is noway the herd is going to be able to build any kind of resistance to it.

brock ratcliff · Oct 16, 2013

Lundy said:
The vast majority of hunters are so ill informed that they don't have a clue about populations, trends, harvests, new regulations, etc.

As an example how many did not even know about the 2 day MZ season and of those that did how many did not know it was doe only, even while bowhunting? There were even many on here that didn't know until a very short time before the season about the bowhunting restrictions. If guys on here didn't know what chance does the general hunting public have? zilch.

I lost count of the number of people that have been in our shop and asked me about the early muzzy season. Its like they just read enough to know a little about it. One of the men that asked me also asked if he could take his sons out and use the apprentice license option. He is also the only man I've had tell me in the last decade or so that we have "too many dang deer". You know the type, owns a Ranger boat that hasn't been wet in years and a shotgun that hasn't been out of the closet since before the plug law. I fear there are a lot of them...

Hortontoter · Oct 16, 2013

Not picking on Brock and his son or anyone else. But, lets say hunters flock to the areas that still have a sustainable herd and feel no guilt for shooting three does in one weekend. At this rate how long will it take for the entire state to be in sad shape, I'd say not long. And believe me, I understand that hunters want to hunt where the deer are, but wiping out one county and then moving to another county to wipe it out won't help matters.

brock ratcliff · Oct 16, 2013

You are correct, it won't help. Having said that, the DOW obviously doesn't give a crap about my little area. It's a fragile herd, because there has never been many, almost like a trout stream. You can, and it has, been overharvested. So, the natural thing is to move on to where the deer still are, and that is exactly what I believe the DOW wants to see. We kill 'em off in the flatlands, and move onto the deer-rich SE counties as EVERYONE did 30 years ago. Ive been on the pulpit for probably 5 years about what has been going on in my area. Mrex put me in contact with Tonk to discuss the matter way back then....nothing has changed. Tonk did lower the bag limit, finally, when Fayette hit the absolute rock bottom of the harvest stats in the entire State, but we still had the bonus weekend along with all the other OPPORTUNITY as the rest of the state. Opportunity is what kills numbers of deer, not bag limits.

I feel I've had my head in the noose long enough on this thing. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. And I still have no regret in shooting those deer in Athens. The does in Fayette Co are as safe as they have been for the last several years, at least from me, and I will continue to snare every coyote that will put a necklace on late this winter.

huntn2 · Oct 16, 2013

Hortontoter said:
Not picking on Brock and his son or anyone else. But, lets say hunters flock to the areas that still have a sustainable herd and feel no guilt for shooting three does in one weekend. At this rate how long will it take for the entire state to be in sad shape, I'd say not long. And believe me, I understand that hunters want to hunt where the deer are, but wiping out one county and then moving to another county to wipe it out won't help matters.

Nothing also against anyone who hunts in a county that differs from where they live, but this is why I have always said we need to sell permits by county. There is 0 count on how many hunters hunt a particular county which influences the kill numbers...

brock ratcliff · Oct 16, 2013

The point I forgot to restate; if we are busy killing them in the SE, they will be busy repopulating at home. After a few years, our "home herds" will rebound, and we'll stay there to hunt until the time we've shot 'em out again. Then, back to the hills... Ebb and Flow deer management as prescribed by the DOW. The mistake you are making is still thinking as I did until this weekend, and that is thinking there is a goal to maintain an even level across the state. I don't believe that's the case now. I think the goal is to create the peaks and valleys just described.

Mike Tonkovich

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