Thoughts on doe harvest...

bowhunter1023 · Sep 27, 2012

After a less than stellar year in terms of total deer sightings at our farm and evaluating my trail cameras consensus, I decided not to shoot any does last season and decided the 2012-2013 season should follow suit. My most recent camera pull shows that we have at least 3, possibly 4 mature does using a 145 acre area. I have no doubts this number is a bit higher due to not running cameras inside the 20 acre thicket to the west of us that holds deer who rarely journey on to our farm. In addition to that, there should also be at least one doe group staying on the portion of the 300 acre farm that is just north of us. All of the does I have on camera this year have fawns, with two of them having twins and one or two of them just having one fawn. While tracking down our trespassers last night, I put the word out that we would not be harvesting does and that I would love to see the rest of the neighborhood follow suit. I have my doubts that this will be the case, but at least I tried.

This brings me to a bit of a dilemma and I'm curious as to what you all think. I realize that I am "managing" on a very small level that is influenced more by countless other factors than it is by any one decision I make. However, I like to think that some of the decisions I make will have positive impacts on the future of the hunting at our farm. That being said, I have one doe that I feel should be shot and here is why. Now that the does numbers seems to support the harvest of at least one doe, it alleviates some of the concern I have about killing any of them. The main reason I am thinking I should kill her is that I know she is mature and she had a single button buck fawn this year. That fawn is the biggest button buck fawn I have ever seen in all my years of running cameras. I accidentally deleted the picture good picture of them together, but you can kind of tell from the picture below that he is 3/4 of her size and I believe she may be at least a 3 year old doe.

The two deer side by side in the middle of the plot are them. She has a notch missing from her ear that will make her easily identifiable...

If I can kill her early before she runs him off, there is an outside chance that he will stay around our farm and a minute chance he could be the next slunger I chase in the 2016 season. I know it is a remote possibility this happens, but I also know that if I don't kill her, she will run his ass off. I have pictures of him next to another button buck at the mineral lick this summer and he is a good 6" taller and 10-20 pounds heavier than the other button buck. I realize this could be contributed to when they dropped, but he just has that look. I've been around show cattle long enough to know the difference in quality and mediocre when I see it and if these button bucks were show cattle, I have a future Grand Champion on my hands. I have no way of knowing if Moe procreated last year, or if some other giant knocked her up, but I feel this deer if worth keeping around.

I'm torn down the middle right now on this one and would appreciate some thoughts and opinions from you all. Of the 5 confirmed fawns, two of them are does, so with some luck we should still increase our doe herd even if I kill this one. However, we are sure to if I don't kill her and I'm sure to lose this button buck to someone else...

Jackalope · Sep 27, 2012

I wouldn't shoot her if she is throwing a BB who is better developed than others. Killing her will not prevent him from leaving. It's in their natural instinct to leave to get away from siblings and relatives. He will likely do this before reaching 1.5 years old regardless if she's alive or not.

badger · Sep 27, 2012

Good point Joe. The areas I hunt, I have very little, if not any control over what gets harvested. I envy those of you that do.

Seeing that you previously stated to yourself and others your concern with taking does, I think they would all have a free pass this year.

jeremy44230 · Sep 27, 2012

badger said:
Good point Joe. The areas I hunt, I have very little, if not any control over what gets harvested. I envy those of you that do.

Seeing that you previously stated to yourself and others your concern with taking does, I think they would all have a free pass this year.

Same here! I would love to manage a property and put limits on what is killed. Where I hunt, the other guys shoot just about everything that moves...

I have been very selective in an effort to let em grow. I feel like its an uphill battle!

at1010 · Sep 27, 2012

Jackalope said:
I wouldn't shoot her if she is throwing a BB who is better developed than others. Killing her will not prevent him from leaving. It's in their natural instinct to leave to get away from siblings and relatives. He will likely do this before reaching 1.5 years old regardless if she's alive or not.

He is right, I think there was a study I read that was done in PA that showed how bb leave there home range by age 1.5 but then establish a new range after that. They could travel far distances too, it was amazing.

bowhunter1023 · Sep 27, 2012

I'd be shooting her just from a management position, I can fill tags and my freezer in other areas. I have 50 acres between two properties around my house I don't even count as hunting, but it is loaded with does that will make great eating.

Maybe I just think TOO much. lmao

at1010 · Sep 27, 2012

Jesse said:
I'd be shooting her just from a management position, I can fill tags and my freezer in other areas. I have 50 acres between two properties around my house I don't even count as hunting, but it is loaded with does that will make great eating.

Maybe I just think TOO much. lmao

I thought I thought to much man, hahahaha you really are like Mark Drury! hahahahaha 2016!!!!!

Its all good tho, just shows how much you love to hunt, I can appreciate that!

bowhunter1023 · Sep 27, 2012

My dad always tells me the thing he admires most about me is my constant optimism. If nothing else, I do remain upbeat about what is possible!!!

Big_Holla · Sep 27, 2012

Hard to say what is the right choice to do there Jesse. On one hand if your deer population seems to be still on the low side you might think that there may be room for him to stick around if you don't shoot her. However, with that there have been so many studies that show such a high percentage of buck fawns get ran out of the area when it comes to the rut, or if they stick around after that then they are ran off by the time she gives birth to her next offspring. When you look at that side of the coin, those bucks that are ran off usually have a much higher mortality too than those who are orphaned. On the other hand with everything I have read, bucks that are orphaned rarely disperse on their own, but some do. I guess you have to decide what is most important, rebounding your resident deer population or hoping to keep that buck around for years to come.

Jackalope · Sep 27, 2012

ChuckC said:
Hard to say what is the right choice to do there Jesse. On one hand if your deer population seems to be still on the low side you might think that there may be room for him to stick around if you don't shoot her. However, with that there have been so many studies that show such a high percentage of buck fawns get ran out of the area when it comes to the rut, or if they stick around after that then they are ran off by the time she gives birth to her next offspring. When you look at that side of the coin, those bucks that are ran off usually have a much higher mortality too than those who are orphaned. On the other hand with everything I have read, bucks that are orphaned rarely disperse on their own, but some do. I guess you have to decide what is most important, rebounding your resident deer population or hoping to keep that buck around for years to come.

I guess the question becomes do BB disperse out of natural instinct, or because momma ran them off. I have seen studies that say they go as far as 10 miles from their birthplace. I think Rex said they go about that far when he had the DNR collar some on his property. But the doe can't be running him off that far. Maybe it's a mix of the two, she chases him away from her and he naturally departs on a journey.

Schu72 · Sep 27, 2012

The doe is responsible for half of the genetic make up of her offspring. If she is dropping good fawns will trophy potential I'd let her walk.

bowhunter1023 · Sep 27, 2012

Jackalope said:
I guess the question becomes do BB disperse out of natural instinct, or because momma ran them off. I have seen studies that say they go as far as 10 miles from their birthplace. I think Rex said they go about that far when he had the DNR collar some on his property. But the doe can't be running him off that far. Maybe it's a mix of the two, she chases him away from her and he naturally departs on a journey.

That is my understanding of the situation. I've always understood the process as she kicks him out by instinct so as to prevent inbreeding, then they naturally find their own home range and that journey can cover a hell of a lot of ground. A good example of how much ground they can cover is one I came across when buying RW this summer. I saw a solid 3.5 year old buck with an ear tag one morning and mentioned it to one of the locals. He went on to inform me that the deer came from 11 miles as the crow flies from where he was tagged. The story was the buck was captured while mowing hay one year as a fawn. The farmer tagged his ear and raised him until fall, then turned him loose. At one point, he was spotted hanging out with a group of does in early October. The following summer, he showed up 11 miles away. Would killing his mother have prevented that journey? Who knows. Would killing this doe on our farm keep her fawn around? Who knows. I guess at the end of the day, I'll let her walk because I'd rather have more deer, than take chances on raising a BB fawn to a stud 4.5 year old...

Big_Holla · Sep 27, 2012

I would say the momma gets the ball rolling with giving him the boot. Once he is on the outskirts of her territory then it likely depends on deer density as to where he ends up, does that are intolerant of him coming into their territory and finally habitat. Probably why bucks form bachelor groups in late winter/early spring, it's a place where they can associate with other deer and not having the does continue to push them off.

Buckmaster · Sep 27, 2012

I've mentioned my technique before. I always look for the Big Mamma with two button bucks hanging out nearby. I glass for the button bucks to confirm what they are, then I proceed to kill Big Mamma. The studies I have read is the buck's homerange will be narrowed by the abscence of his mother. This should occur once again on Saturday evening.

Lundy · Sep 27, 2012

Jesse,

I have a lot of acreage that I hunt and have for 20 years not shot young bucks with the belief that next year there will be a bunch of 2-1/2 year old bucks running around and the year after and the year after..........

I still believe and practice that if we shoot a young buck he can never mature, but also have learned that it is really hard to stockpile bucks. They either get killed on the adjacent properties or just flat leave on their own.

We have thousands of trail cam pics of 2-1/2 - 3-1/2 year old bucks over the years that we would always say " he'll be good next year" only to never know what happened to some of them and other new bucks show up that we have never seen before.

I have come to believe that a given piece of property will only become permanent home to a certain number of bucks. Some of them may be born there but I really think the majority come in from other properties. It is almost like these young bucks have a grass in greener mentaility and move when young until they find a hole in some hiearchy and establish their own home turf. probably a way that mother nature keeps the gene pool pure also.

We have bucks that live out there entire lives on the properties but you would think as selective as we are and have been over the years that there would be a buck behind every tree when in fact the number of bucks that call this property home is really no different than it was 20 years ago.

Minus a a really high fence I don't think you can have much significant influence on the small tracts of property we hunt in Ohio.

Food plots to increase the carrying capacity of the land and attract more deer has much more potential to influence deer density and buck to doe ratio than anything else a hunter can do, at least that is what I believe.

jagermeister · Sep 27, 2012

I agree with what the others have said so far. Whether you kill her or not, he's probably going to wonder off to another farm. But all that aside, I think you're pretty optimistic thinking this BB will be a stud simply because he's got a bigger body than the other BBs. Body size doesn't necessarily correlate with antler size. What did his pedicles look like? What are his genetics? He's probably only bigger because he dropped sooner than all the others. Hell, for all you know he could be a spike for 4 straight years...

bowhunter1023 · Sep 27, 2012

His buttons are much bigger than anything I have seen on a BB fawn at our farm since we bought it. His muscle tone is even different. I'm telling you, this deer has some awesome genetics...

Big_Holla · Sep 27, 2012

Jesse said:
His buttons are much bigger than anything I have seen on a BB fawn at our farm since we bought it. His muscle tone is even different. I'm telling you, this deer has some awesome genetics...

You need a trail cam pic of his junk......that will tell ya if he's worth keeping around!!

ickle:

finelyshedded · Sep 27, 2012

Great post Lundy.

Thoughts on doe harvest...

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