in everyones opinion which do you guys thinks matters most for hunting arrows, built for speed or penetration?
better arrow for hunting
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Buckmaster
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The laws of KE. Heavy and slow vs fast and light. They both bisect at a point, after which they run in parallel. You can get the same KE out of a fast and light arrow as you can a heavy slow one. To a point.. You can only do so much in the fast and light department, but you can always make it heavier and slower.. The happy median is the ease of hitting your target.. You can shoot a big old lincoln log arrow and knock them down. But you'll have plenty of drop and really have to know your yardages.. Or you can shoot a fast and light arrow where it's far less a problem as the arrow shoots flatter... The happy median will be Maximum KE, for a acceptable speed and trajectory. Each bow, and archer is different with respects to draw length and poundage. The real question becomes. I need to push a heavier arrow faster.. The past 20 years of bow architecture and sales has been centered around that single statement.. Push a heavier arrow faster... But there will always be those that use that to push a lighter arrow even faster..
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Yes... I'll favor more penetration...
Balanced of course with as much speed as possible, tailored to the individual's set up they're hunting with, and the game they're hunting...
And then put in the right spot.
You do those 3 things and you've got the right arrow. I think 1hornwilly posted a link to this site ( http://www.huntersfriend.com/carbon_arrows/hunting_arrows_selection_guide_chapter_1.htm) and it has a wealth of information around arrows, and what is going to be right for your set up.
i just bought some arrows the are made for penetration today and they seem to shoot pretty good, actually better then the light arrows, i mean my bow ibo is 325 im at 60lbs and these are prolly around 400 grain or so prolly more cause i dont know much about grain weight but im guessing id be around 250`s possibly and they fly pretty straight out to 30yards so im guessin im at the counter balance point maybe, still shootin a heavy arrow with a straight flight?
Wish I remembered which show I was watching so I could give the guy credit for his explanation. He took a golf ball, and one of those plastic golf balls (like a whiffle ball) and threw them. He heaved the whiffle ball one as hard as he could. It went out a ways and pretty much stopped several feet after it hit the ground. Threw the regular golf ball with much less force and it hit the ground and kept going maybe 5-10yds. He was making the point of heavier ball which was more dense kept rolling due to more kinetic energy, while the whiffle ball came out of his hand fast but basically died on impact with the ground. Pretty good comparison in my opinion to show the necessity of kinetic energy. My bow's IBO is 315-320fps (can't remember exactly) but my hunting setup through a chrono shows 275fps. Bow is a 70lb bow set at 64lbs. I am shooting Radial Weave 300 with 100gr broadhead out at 275fps with this setup. I am far from an expert in this area, but I feel this is a pretty good combination for me. I do notice a little bit of drop at 40yds, more noticeable at 50yds, and quite noticeable at 60yds. I don't care. I want to be consistent out to 50/60/70yds, but I don't foresee myself EVER shooting at an animal (maybe a coyote) beyond 40yds.
My point here is you need to shoot what works for you, your bow, and your self discipline to only take a shot you feel is ethical to kill a deer. Dannmann nailed it though. Shot placement is number one!
My point here is you need to shoot what works for you, your bow, and your self discipline to only take a shot you feel is ethical to kill a deer. Dannmann nailed it though. Shot placement is number one!
the whole golf ball trick sounds like a good logic, im guessin this kinda ties into which is better shootin a lil slower but have a steady aim and be able to hit something or shootin fast with a good amount of wobble and be chasing arrows
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The golf ball analogy doesn't quite work... Lets use some bogus numbers as an example... 1-10 with 1 being the lightest and the slowest..
Say the standard golf ball weighs 10, and he throws it at a speed of 3 and this equals 75 ft lbs of KE
Now say the wiffle ball weighs 3 but he throws it at a speed of 10 and the KE is still 75 ft lbs..
Well what happened there? They both came out to 75 ft lbs of KE..
You have to find the happy median.... And that is.. Push the heaviest arrow you can, as fast as you can, to achieve maximum KE... light vs heavy, big vs slow is all arbitrary... All that matters is KE. And there are two factors that matter... Weight and speed... Decrease one and increase the other you get the same result as increasing one and decreasing the other... Every bow with personal draw length has a maximum KE that can be achieved but is unknown to you. It's already set by physics. It's up to you to find the arrow combination that can achieve it. Say that max is at 75 KE.. If you achieve 75 KE light and fast, or big and slow, both are 75 KE.
Say the standard golf ball weighs 10, and he throws it at a speed of 3 and this equals 75 ft lbs of KE
Now say the wiffle ball weighs 3 but he throws it at a speed of 10 and the KE is still 75 ft lbs..
Well what happened there? They both came out to 75 ft lbs of KE..
You have to find the happy median.... And that is.. Push the heaviest arrow you can, as fast as you can, to achieve maximum KE... light vs heavy, big vs slow is all arbitrary... All that matters is KE. And there are two factors that matter... Weight and speed... Decrease one and increase the other you get the same result as increasing one and decreasing the other... Every bow with personal draw length has a maximum KE that can be achieved but is unknown to you. It's already set by physics. It's up to you to find the arrow combination that can achieve it. Say that max is at 75 KE.. If you achieve 75 KE light and fast, or big and slow, both are 75 KE.
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Yes.. But say two arrows have the same ballistic coefficient. They both lose the same amount of speed before impact thus striking with the same KE.. So while the forces that slow the faster arrow also slow the heavier arrow. If speed is equal then yes the heavier one wins.. If weight is equal the faster one wins. The key is to throw the heaviest arrow as fast as you can and still achieve optimal KE... correct? Or to rephrase, throw the lightest arrow the fastest you can that will still achieve optimal KE. At a point too much of either factor deviates away from the max potential KE..
At a point the heavier one begins to win and achieve more KE.. But this is only because light and fast has a max limit... So does slow and heavy.. A 2 pound arrow at 100 fps will hit like a ton of bricks.. But so will an arrow half that weight at double that speed. However....While there is a point where heavy and slow begins to win due to the max capability of light and fast, IMO that point is beyond what most consider acceptable in trajectory...
I don't know... Just talking out loud.. That's how I understand the law of KE anyway.. Confuse away man.. I might get it. lol
At a point the heavier one begins to win and achieve more KE.. But this is only because light and fast has a max limit... So does slow and heavy.. A 2 pound arrow at 100 fps will hit like a ton of bricks.. But so will an arrow half that weight at double that speed. However....While there is a point where heavy and slow begins to win due to the max capability of light and fast, IMO that point is beyond what most consider acceptable in trajectory...
I don't know... Just talking out loud.. That's how I understand the law of KE anyway.. Confuse away man.. I might get it. lol
I tend to go for the speed side of the spectrum. My arrows weigh 392. WHich isnt super light, but isnt really all that heavy. I dont care what arrow you are shooting at what weight you will have no problems penetrating a deers chest wall. THe problem occurs when the shooulder is brought into the equation. I dont know anyone that aims purposfully at the shoulder, if they do, they need a little instruction. Thats why in a previous post shot placement was brought up. Do bad shots happen? Yup, they sure do. But I go for speed as opposed to KE for a couple reasons. One, is pin gap. Two is speed itself. The arrow drops less, and allows more forgiveness in judging yardeges.
Although, KE has its perks also. A heavy slower arrow tunes better than a light fast arrow! A heavy arrow hits harder. A heavier arrow will quiet a bow more than a lighter arrow will.
Its six of one, a half dozen of another. Unfortunately it is all a matter of opinion. There is no way of saying one is better than the other, if there was than you wouldnt have to ask this question and we would all be doing it.
Although, KE has its perks also. A heavy slower arrow tunes better than a light fast arrow! A heavy arrow hits harder. A heavier arrow will quiet a bow more than a lighter arrow will.
Its six of one, a half dozen of another. Unfortunately it is all a matter of opinion. There is no way of saying one is better than the other, if there was than you wouldnt have to ask this question and we would all be doing it.
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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the general assumption is that arrows of differing weights will receive that same amount of energy from a bow and it is false. the efficiency increases and transfers more energy to the heavier arrow than the light one. thats why heavier arrows are not as loud out of a bow as the light ones and bows are smoother with heavier arrows. the rate the force is applied matters to it absorptive capacity materials. for existance water... jump off a diving board and water is relatively smoove and soft...jump off a high train tressel and its like hitting concrete..
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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correct, IMHO the broadhead is much more important than the speed difference. Broadheads work very differently and can increase or decrease results.
dang you guys know your stuff, im kinda lost still on the KE part but i can follow what you guys say about push a heavy arrow faster and push a lighter arrow even faster, IMO after shooting these arrows i just got they seem to fly the same as lighter arrows or maybe its just something i cant tell, at 30 yards it seems to take a lil slight bit longer to hit the target but still has a good amount of speed upon impact, so is it really just a matter of distance is where its taking place the most? like for instance at 5 or 10 yards a heavy arrow will get there just as quick as a lighter arrow but at 25 or 30 or 40 etc is where you really notice the drop and longer time to get to the target?? does that make any sense at all
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Yes. Precisely.. And you want to push the heaviest arrow that is acceptable to you in trajectory (aka speed) at your desired distance. There is no sense when hunting deer to fling an arrow that is so heavy it will have a foot of drop between 30-40 yards. It should hit with the same force as a lighter one that you pushed faster and didn't drop as much.. To a point anyway..
ohio mossy oak
Senior Member
I might confuse some but not intentionally.... As soon a an arrow leaves the string, it is at its maximum or speed(same thing) and will immediately start to slow down. We can talk about how much kinetic energy and momentum that an arrow has, but most of that at talk centers around the initial speed,KE an momentum produced by the bow. But what is much more important is how much speed, kinetic energy and momentum the arrow has at the point of impact, especially for bowhunting where the arrow must penetrate an animal.When a arrow leaves the bow only 2 things are effecting it..Gravity an Drag..The drag is going to be the main thing that says how fast that arrow slows down..Take 2 identical arrows on the outside, same shaft diameter, fletchings, point and nock etc. One arrow is very light, and one much heavier. To keep it simple, both arrows have the same spine. When shooting both arrows out of the same bow, the lighter arrow will of course be faster at point blank range. However, the heavier arrow will leave the bow with more kinetic energy and momentum due to the bow being more efficient at delivering energy into the arrow(Which milo stated)
As the speed of the arrow increases, so does the drag on the arrow. The faster the arrow, the higher the force trying to slow it down. the faster arrow is going to have more force slowing it down initially.
At distances most of us shoot deer at , the lighter arrow will almost always keep a higher speed than the heavier arrow. Even though the lighter arrow is slowing down faster, it started out much faster and the heavier arrow is also slowing down. Because the heavier arrow is slowing down at a slower rate, it will maintain a higher percentage of it’s original speed than the faster arrow. Also remember that the heavier arrow has more kinetic energy and momentum than the lighter arrow at launch to begin with. This gap only gets bigger as the arrows get farther downrange.You would think this would favor the slower, heavier arrows for having more power at impact for multiple reasons. But as always, there is a drawback. The lighter arrow is going to drop less over the full distance to the target and is less dependent on accurate yardage judging (notice I said less dependent; accurate yardage judgment is still extremely critical!)
I had a link on actual testing data of like a 500+grain arrow an a low 300grain..But i will have to find it..There are clear advantages to both.And neither is right or wrong..
My post is simply based on research an is not meant to say anyone is correct or incorrect in there view on said subject>I hope i made sense
Milo
Tatonka guide.
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the one thing people don't realize is resistance is not linear when it comes to velocity. its is exponential. the advantage will always go to the heavier arrows given all things equal as it will absorb more bow energy than a light arrow. now i will say there is a peaked portion of that curve for what game we are chasing.
Mathews Z7
Contact Info: Mathews Inc.
www.mathewsinc.com
MSRP: $899 Draw Length: 25”-30” *
Cams: Z7 Solocam Draw Weight: 40-70, 65*
Limbs: SE4 Composite Slim Limb Brace Height: 7” *
Grip: SlimFit Inline Grip Axle to Axle: 30” *
Let-off: 80% * Mass Weight: 3.7 lbs.*
String: Zebra Bowstring & Cable *Advertised
Damping: Harmonic Stabilizer, Monkey Tails, Dead End String Stop
Finish: Black, Lost Camo ^Measured
Performance at a Glance (60 lbs, 29 3/8”):
Arrow Speed K.E. Momentum
300 Grains 309.1 63.6 13.2
360 Grains 285.9 65.3 14.7
420 Grains 266.9 66.4 16.0
540 Grains 238.0 67.9 18.4
Arrow (Grains): 300 360 420 540
Dynamic Efficiency: 81.5% 83.7% 85.1% 87.0%
Speed Per Inch of PS: 15.0 13.9 12.9 11.5
Noise Output (dBA): 85.5 82.9 82.4 80.9
Total Vibration (G): 263.4 233.9 205.8 171.7
Mathews Z7
Contact Info: Mathews Inc.
www.mathewsinc.com
MSRP: $899 Draw Length: 25”-30” *
Cams: Z7 Solocam Draw Weight: 40-70, 65*
Limbs: SE4 Composite Slim Limb Brace Height: 7” *
Grip: SlimFit Inline Grip Axle to Axle: 30” *
Let-off: 80% * Mass Weight: 3.7 lbs.*
String: Zebra Bowstring & Cable *Advertised
Damping: Harmonic Stabilizer, Monkey Tails, Dead End String Stop
Finish: Black, Lost Camo ^Measured
Performance at a Glance (60 lbs, 29 3/8”):
Arrow Speed K.E. Momentum
300 Grains 309.1 63.6 13.2
360 Grains 285.9 65.3 14.7
420 Grains 266.9 66.4 16.0
540 Grains 238.0 67.9 18.4
Arrow (Grains): 300 360 420 540
Dynamic Efficiency: 81.5% 83.7% 85.1% 87.0%
Speed Per Inch of PS: 15.0 13.9 12.9 11.5
Noise Output (dBA): 85.5 82.9 82.4 80.9
Total Vibration (G): 263.4 233.9 205.8 171.7
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That's how I roll and what I am constantly hoping to acheive. It's the best of both worlds and it should always give you a tough, killer projectile...
All I know is, my 380 grain easton flatlines fly like lasers and blow through deer without a problem. They blow through sagging maple limbs, too. lmao