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BATFE attempting to ban a common ar15 ammo

MK111

"Happy Hunting Grounds in the Sky"
Supporting Member
6,551
66
SW Ohio
Sneaky bastards. Anything to just keep chipping away at what they can't get passed through congress.
 

Hedgelj

Senior Member
Supporting Member
7,177
178
Mohicanish
The only place I was able to find just the SS109 bullets for reloading. $124 per 1000 or $65 per 500.

The tips aren't painted green as that's done after reloading. Which I prefer not painted if they do ban them.

https://www.upammosupply.com/node/310
Wideners also has some as of this AM.

M855 panic buying in full effect. Couldn't find it online this morning at my normal places. Have seen it posted that a few crazy souls are paying through the nose already on gun broker. If it continues I may sell some of my stash to pay for the same volume of a better SHTF round.

The major problems are:
1) the ATF cannot legislate, they are part if the executive branch and this is the THIRD reinterpretation they have done this year alone.
2) m855 does Not fit the armor piercing profile in the original law so the ATF is going outside its bounds to classify this round as an AP round.
3) this removes one of the two major surplus ( and fairly cheap) ammo types for AR15s from the market. This will drive up the prices and is a step towards a "backdoor" weapons ban. If you can't buy or afford to buy the ammo why own the weapon.
 

MK111

"Happy Hunting Grounds in the Sky"
Supporting Member
6,551
66
SW Ohio
I had a 1/2 ammo can full of GI green tip loaded rounds at Lima gunshow last weekend and didn't sell a one. Shouldn't be a problem at the next show and the price just doubled.
 

yotehunter

Member
1,527
36
spencerville oh
I had a 1/2 ammo can full of GI green tip loaded rounds at Lima gunshow last weekend and didn't sell a one. Shouldn't be a problem at the next show and the price just doubled.

lol I can't say I blame you. I'm thinking all the 223 will be scarce and outrageous again. I know its only GI rounds but people are going to get stupid I'm afraid.
 

Mike

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
15,848
223
Up Nort
How to comment – from the BATFE

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov

Fax: (202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,859
260
What's incredibly moronic about this is they're trying to ban this round because it can be used in a "pistol" that can defeat body armor. But not one damn thing about the FN five seven. A pistol whose entire design and reason for manufacture was to defeat body armor. And it's high capacity! Lol
 

hickslawns

Dignitary Member
Supporting Member
39,770
248
Ohio
Probably shouldn't offer them any suggestions Joe. Lol

You are correct Hedge. I love this country: therefore I am on the watchlist. Former military: check. Fire department/EMT training: check. Self employed white man: check. Bath regularly: check. College education: check. Owns a shovel: check. I am a terrorist suspect. Dang. Me and 99% of the country fit their model in one way or annother. Lol
 

Ohiosam

*Supporting Member*
11,740
191
Mahoning Co.
this explains how we got to the point where the BATF could pull this off.

http://www.utahgunexchange.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-atf-ammo-ban/

ATF proposed ban on SS109 and M855 Ammunition
As most everyone knows now, the ATF has proposed a ban on what they consider to be armor piercing ammunition in 5.56/.223. There is a tremendous amount of confusion, misinformation and outright lies about the proposal and I hope to clear some of that up today.
Should we be freaking out? YES! This sporting purposes clause is the root of this new attack on our rights and it is strictly an anti-gun measure. As part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 the sporting purposes clause was made into law, largely with the support of domestic firearms manufacturers to reduce cheaper overseas ammo from being imported. This in a nutshell said that only sporting guns could be imported and that “sporting” capability was determined by a points system that was completely arbitrary, at best.
We have numerous instances of case law that state emphatically that the 2nd is NOT about sporting or hunting. In fact US v Miller states very clearly that the ONLY weapons protected by the 2nd are the ones readily suitable by use for the organized and unorganized militia. But the sporting purposes clause is just one more piece of unconstitutional law passed by the Congress and signed into law by LBJ.
Now those saying we should arrest Obama for this because he did this unconstitutional act by executive order. Sigh. He has NOTHING to do with this. Thank LBJ who signed it into law. There is plenty that Obama HAS done, but this is not on him. And as for the Constitutionality of the ruling, it is in fact constitutional. Try looking here.
CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES RELATED TO THE USE OF ADMINISTRATIVE SANCTIONS
And here
Delegation of Legislative Power
You can thank Congress for giving ALL regulatory agencies the power they have with no legislative oversight. These agencies can in fact make legal rulings that comply with the law, and the GCA 1968 is in fact law. They have used that law to restrict many things, ammo is the easiest target.
Now this came about because many in the gun community thought we were being clever. I have a friend in government that warned me over a year ago that they were going after the ammo. He is also the one that told me about the arm brace before the ATF ruled on it and it became mainstream. His words to me then were (after sitting in a conference in DC where ATF was there and they said very clearly their intent to do so through ways that were not overtly public and they would be pursuing every avenue available to them). They approved the arm brace and worded the Tech Branch letter KNOWING that the American public would see this as a way around the NFA and paying for an SBR’s tax stamp. Low and behold, they were right. So the AR pistols flooded the market making them mainstream.
Now it is important to remember a few precedents about rifle caliber pistols. Olympic Arms screwed us royally by making an AR pistol in 7.62X39 in the early 90’s. The result was the banning of steel core AK ammo that could be had for $75 per 1,000 delivered. It also left tens of millions of rounds of ammo sitting in customs warehouses that could not be sold, bankrupting some of the biggest importers. Last year the ATF ruled that the AK pistols in 5.45X39 were readily available so they banned the cheaper and more deadly 7N6 round from importation. Now, thanks to the popularity of the arm brace they have found the cause they need under the sporting purposes clause to ban the SS109 and M855. And worst of all, I am told that is EXACTLY what their intent was the whole time. And I believe it. They killed the unrestricted use of the arm brace and made pistol ARs pistols again, and had the tools they needed to move forward with the ammo ban.
What this does is ban the importation or sale of what they consider AP ammo to civilians. What you have is legal, but you can’t buy anymore. This is the most common surplus round out there for the 5.56. The goal is twofold. Raise ammo prices, and keep “dangerous” ammo out of civilian hands. For the safety of the police of course. And the children. We must do it for them and if you don’t agree you are a bad person (Insert violent barfing here, but we know that is their party line). That is another absurdity that we must not allow ourselves to be drug into a debate on since it is meant to distract us from the real issue.
We need to get this insane legislation overturned because the legislation is unconstitutional. They way they are using it unfortunately is completely legal. In order to see what defines their AP ammo, you have to look closely at the wording. Most if it has to do with the composition of the core, and the weight of the jacket vs the total weight of the round. That alone is a determining factor of the danger of the ammo, not actual real world ballistics. In the 70’s many companies had to import their snub nosed revolvers and put the 4” barrel on them so they could leave the customs warehouse, only to take them off and put short ones back on because it did not pass the sporting purposes test. Here is a letter from renowned NFA attorney Mark Barnes.
THE SPORTING PURPOSES TEST, AND ATF’S NEW POLICY
The sporting purposes test is law, and a very bad one at that. While it is in direct opposition to the intent of the Constitution, it is the law of the land that we need to attack. We need the entire GCA 68 and FOPA of 86 repealed. We need legislative oversight on all regulatory agencies. Until we get those things, the ATF and other agencies have a million and one ways to screw over the people under badly written laws. We can blame a lot of people for these laws, but the fact is they need to be changed. That should be the biggest focus of any citizen. So write the letters to the ATF and Congress. Be polite, concise, and factual. It does make a small difference; we kept Saiga 12ga shotguns from being made into DDs by doing this.

The ATF has said that they “will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015″ at this email address:
APAComments@atf.gov


Consider using the following template:

Subject line: Proposed Ammo Ban

To Whom It May Concern;
I am writing to express my opposition to the proposed administrative ban of lawful ammunition, namely M855 or SS109 commonly known as “green tip.” This ammunition uses a 62 grain projectile that has a steel core component. This ammunition was designed in the cold war era to penetrate eastern bloc helmets and body armor. It is ineffective against the modern body armor available to, and commonly used by law enforcement and the military. It has no armor piercing properties. This ammunition has become an inexpensive sporting round used by many in AR15 and other modern sporting rifles.
This administrative ban by BATFE regulation is another affront to the liberty and rights of the citizens of the United States. We have suffered continuous bureaucratic regulation and arbitrary rule changes that impose an undue burden upon the law abiding citizen. Such regulation is put in place without legislative endorsement or judicial oversight. This proposed regulation will not serve to enhance public safety or deter criminals. It will simply create yet another hardship on citizens using it for lawful purposes, and ammunition manufacturers.
Sincerely,
Your Name here


We CAN beat this and then we need to go after our elected representatives and get the sporting purposes clause gone from our law books. It is our biggest enemy, and can be interpreted as they see fit since they can change the rules as they go along.

About the Author:
James is a former armorer for the US Army Special Forces and has been an SOT holder (NFA Manufacturer) for nearly twenty years. He is finishing his Bachelors Degree in Paralegal studies this quarter and will finish his Bachelors in Criminal Justice in March of 2016.
Everything you need to know about the ATF ammo ban, and what to do about it.
 
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