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How many deer in a woodlot?

Lundy

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Brock,

You are going to have to explain (slowly I'm old:)) your deer in a woodlot theory.

I look at the past harvests 2006 through 2010 and examine the numbers for those five years one of two thing had to happen to maintain the high harvest for 5 years.

Either there were well over 1 million deer to start in 2006, unlikely, or the herd had the ability to replenish itself with a birth rate equal to or greater than the previous years harvest


If you do the math, pick a number, of deer remaining to start the new spring fawning season and average just 1.5 fawns per remaining doe, 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio, we should not be seeing the drastic decrease we are seeing. The math just doesn't work, UNLESS those yearly fawns born each spring never make it to be a grown deer.

I don't think you can kill 1.221 million deer over a 5 year period, average of 244,000 per year and not experience the noticeable population reduction two years before we did if the reduction is primarily harvest driven. 10 deer become 30 deer in just 3 years with only a 1.5 fawn average, 10 deer to 40 deer in 3 years with a 2 fawn per doe.


The numbers just don't add up for me. So explain your math to me so I can try to understand.

Thanks
 

MK111

"Happy Hunting Grounds in the Sky"
Supporting Member
6,551
66
SW Ohio
I can't help you here. But I believe somewhere I've read researchers use the figure of 1.7 fawns per doe for yearly average.
This even makes the situation worse in numbers.
 

Jackalope

Dignitary Member
Staff member
38,859
260
I'm driving now so I'll have to respond later. But Are you implying there aren't less deer today than 5 years ago? No matter the math or reason behind it there is a plain and simple truth. There are considerably less deer today. Scientist can not explain why the honeybee population is decreasing at an alarming rate. But that doesn't change the reality that they are.

How we got here is debatable. But the reality is we ARE here, that's indisputable.
 

brock ratcliff

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Supporting Member
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It is more of an elementary thought (because that is how my mind works :) ), than what you are trying to apply here. I first came up with the thought when speaking with Mike T for the first or second time back in 2008 or 2009. In Fayette Co, our habitat is made up of very small parcels of cover in a sea of agriculture. The herd is very easy prey for gun hunters, drivers in particular. If a swarm of drivers enter a woods, the deer will either stand and be shot, or run into wide open areas to be gunned down. A few will make it through the gauntlet, but only if the gauntlet is limited. Most of the driving is done on the last Saturday of season, add Sunday hunting, and the gauntlet has doubled.

So lets say we have 10 deer in the woodlot. Along come two truckloads of hunters. One group rolls into the woods, the other waits. During the drive, four deer are killed, leaving 6. If we still operated under a 6 day season, that group of deer would be left to make more deer. However, we have added Sunday hunting, so our group of hunters is back the next day. There are 6 deer left, they burst from cover, and 4 of them are shot. We now have 2 deer left to for next season, instead of the 6 we would have had in 2001. It's a simple thought, really always has been, but it demonstrates how we can kill the same, or even more, with less deer. Our hunters killed 4 on Saturday out of a possible 10. Then they killed 4 on Sunday, out of a possible 6. There were less deer in our lil woodlot, yet our kill remained the same both days.

What my personal observations showed me was that our deer were not ABLE to reproduce in sustaining numbers. Keep in mind, I was running a half dozen BECs non-stop on one small 150 acre parcel. I knew if a squirrel farted. In addition to in-field personal observations, it was evident our fawns were not making it to fall, and the obvious culprit was coyotes. While it is perfectly normal to see 2 and sometimes 3 fawns with each adult doe, my observations turned to seeing 3 adult does for every fawn! Coyotes were killing our fawns. I started killing coyotes in February and March as they started building their dens, it's the only time of year they are not transient, and provided the most benefit to our local fawns. After one spring, the difference was noticeable! Seeing fawns again is a huge motivator to keep killing coyotes! It's now part of my annual routine.

I spoke with Tonk on several occasions, begging him to cut back on our tag allocations for Fayette Co. It wasn't until Fayette hit the rock bottom of all Ohio's counties that he finally moved us to Zone A (at the time, 1 regular tag, 1 antlerless archery). I had hoped he would pull back the reigns before we bottomed out, but he did not. Now, the area is still mostly void of deer, with the exception of the relatively small area I hunt. It truly is the diamond in the rough. I see no deer commuting from my house to the farm, but the farm again has a thriving population. There hasn't been a doe shot off the property that I'm aware of since 2006. On 500 acres, I'm now essentially the only one hunting due to the landowner running off others, and some just giving up in the lean years. I have it made, and it is no thanks to the DOW.

When I first came up with the elementary thought of the woodlot deer, most of the state was still a few years from noticing a decline. I even told Tonk at the time some areas likely had enough deer that they would seem unaffected. As it now seems, even the mighty Athens Co has noticed a down turn. I also told Tonk and Mrex that we had LESS deer in this area now than we had in 1995. Both disagreed. Both were wrong. In 1995, there were 600 deer killed in Fayette Co, last year there were 300 for the season total. Why? There are LESS deer, a lot LESS. Athens County, BTW, killed essentially the same number of deer last season as was killed in 1995, even given the addition of Sunday hunting, youth gun season, muzzleloaders that actually go bang when you pull the trigger, and far better archery gear than we had in 1995. Oh yeah, and a heck of a lot more tags for those folks interested in piling deer carcasses.

Each time our harvest numbers have started to show a reduction over the last 15 years, Tonk added opportunity. Youth season, Sunday hunting, bonus gun, muzzy season became a week-long affair for a time. It's no wonder the kill inflated, while the total population did not! I pointed this out to Mike T at Strouds this fall. He replied "Any time you kill over 35 percent of the population, you reduce the herd. I don't think we have reduced the herd"... I replied "If a county killed 600 in 1995, and only 300 in 2012, would that be an indicator we've killed over 35 percent"....

You have to look at the really fine print to see how the harvest numbers have stayed as high as they did, to really see how deeply the herd is cut. A couple of years ago when some of the big kill counties were starting to show declines, he raised the bag limits in other counties, like Van Wert, Darke, Mercer, Lake, Preble, Miami, counties that had been Zone A counties for years. They gave a false boost, they have nearly wiped those counties out....I guarantee it, simply because they are all very similar to Fayette in habitat. I said when they made those changes it would happen, I saw it happen before in the mid-90's when I traveled those areas often and knew many of the local hunters. Look at the harvest stats for those counties this year...dang. Hate to say it, but I told 'em so. I told Tonk again at Strouds that his numbers for those areas were going to be in the trash this year....it's predictable, if you look. Unfortunately, he doesn't look, because he just doesn't care. Now that there is nothing left, he may pull back the reigns in those areas, but I doubt it, he hasn't cut deep enough just yet.

Dang... I don't even know if I answered your question. :(
 
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yotehunter

Member
1,527
36
spencerville oh
It is more of an elementary thought (because that is how my mind works :) ), than what you are trying to apply here. I first came up with the thought when speaking with Mike T for the first or second time back in 2008 or 2009. In Fayette Co, our habitat is made up of very small parcels of cover in a sea of agriculture. The herd is very easy prey for gun hunters, drivers in particular. If a swarm of drivers enter a woods, the deer will either stand and be shot, or run into wide open areas to be gunned down. A few will make it through the gauntlet, but only if the gauntlet is limited. Most of the driving is done on the last Saturday of season, add Sunday hunting, and the gauntlet has doubled.

So lets say we have 10 deer in the woodlot. Along come two truckloads of hunters. One group rolls into the woods, the other waits. During the drive, four deer are killed, leaving 6. If we still operated under a 6 day season, that group of deer would be left to make more deer. However, we have added Sunday hunting, so our group of hunters is back the next day. There are 6 deer left, they burst from cover, and 4 of them are shot. We now have 2 deer left to for next season, instead of the 6 we would have had in 2001. It's a simple thought, really always has been, but it demonstrates how we can kill the same, or even more, with less deer. Our hunters killed 4 on Saturday out of a possible 10. Then they killed 4 on Sunday, out of a possible 6. There were less deer in our lil woodlot, yet our kill remained the same both days.

What my personal observations showed me was that our deer were not ABLE to reproduce in sustaining numbers. Keep in mind, I was running a half dozen BECs non-stop on one small 150 acre parcel. I knew if a squirrel farted. In addition to in-field personal observations, it was evident our fawns were not making it to fall, and the obvious culprit was coyotes. While it is perfectly normal to see 2 and sometimes 3 fawns with each adult doe, my observations turned to seeing 3 adult does for every fawn! Coyotes were killing our fawns. I started killing coyotes in February and March as they started building their dens, it's the only time of year they are not transient, and provided the most benefit to our local fawns. After one spring, the difference was noticeable! Seeing fawns again is a huge motivator to keep killing coyotes! It's now part of my annual routine.

I spoke with Tonk on several occasions, begging him to cut back on our tag allocations for Fayette Co. It wasn't until Fayette hit the rock bottom of all Ohio's counties that he finally moved us to Zone A (at the time, 1 regular tag, 1 antlerless archery). I had hoped he would pull back the reigns before we bottomed out, but he did not. Now, the area is still mostly void of deer, with the exception of the relatively small area I hunt. It truly is the diamond in the rough. I see no deer commuting from my house to the farm, but the farm again has a thriving population. There hasn't been a doe shot off the property that I'm aware of since 2006. On 500 acres, I'm now essentially the only one hunting due to the landowner running off others, and some just giving up in the lean years. I have it made, and it is no thanks to the DOW.

When I first came up with the elementary thought of the woodlot deer, most of the state was still a few years from noticing a decline. I even told Tonk at the time some areas likely had enough deer that they would seem unaffected. As it now seems, even the mighty Athens Co has noticed a down turn. I also told Tonk and Mrex that we had LESS deer in this area now than we had in 1995. Both disagreed. Both were wrong. In 1995, there were 600 deer killed in Fayette Co, last year there were 300 for the season total. Why? There are LESS deer, a lot LESS. Athens County, BTW, killed essentially the same number of deer last season as was killed in 1995, even given the addition of Sunday hunting, youth gun season, muzzleloaders that actually go bang when you pull the trigger, and far better archery gear than we had in 1995. Oh yeah, and a heck of a lot more tags for those folks interested in piling deer carcasses.

Each time our harvest numbers have started to show a reduction over the last 15 years, Tonk added opportunity. Youth season, Sunday hunting, bonus gun, muzzy season became a week-long affair for a time. It's no wonder the kill inflated, while the total population did not! I pointed this out to Mike T at Strouds this fall. He replied "Any time you kill over 35 percent of the population, you reduce the herd. I don't think we have reduced the herd"... I replied "If a county killed 600 in 1995, and only 300 in 2012, would that be an indicator we've killed over 35 percent"....

You have to look at the really fine print to see how the harvest numbers have stayed as high as they did, to really see how deeply the herd is cut. A couple of years ago when some of the big kill counties were starting to show declines, he raised the bag limits in other counties, like Van Wert, Darke, Mercer, Lake, Preble, Miami, counties that had been Zone A counties for years. They gave a false boost, they have nearly wiped those counties out....I guarantee it, simply because they are all very similar to Fayette in habitat. I said when they made those changes it would happen, I saw it happen before in the mid-90's when I traveled those areas often and knew many of the local hunters. Look at the harvest stats for those counties this year...dang. Hate to say it, but I told 'em so. I told Tonk again at Strouds that his numbers for those areas were going to be in the trash this year....it's predictable, if you look. Unfortunately, he doesn't look, because he just doesn't care. Now that there is nothing left, he may pull back the reigns in those areas, but I doubt it, he hasn't cut deep enough just yet.

Dang... I don't even know if I answered your question. :(
Like I said before the hunters have more opportunities to be in the field now then ever before and the harvest numbers keep declining. You don't need a degree too figure out if the deer arnt here to kill hunters can't kill them. The next few years is just going to get worse unless odnr will listen too the people paying there wages ( the hunters) and get there head out of their ass and cut the tags back
 

brock ratcliff

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Supporting Member
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I've heard it said that the DOW would like to see the harvest back to what it was in the 80's. I venture a guess that if we were only allowed to hunt 6 days with shotguns, muzzle loaders had to be side lock percussions or flint lock, cross bows had to be a PSE Foxfire, Starfire, Crossfire, or Barnett Wildcat, nothing better than a 1989 Cougar Mag or PSE Mach flight 4 for a bow...and I guarantee there would be less deer killed now than we killed in 88.

Oh yeah, and only one tag...except for those first 11 counties that were allowed to kill one extra doe.
 
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Lundy

Member
1,307
127
Absolutely no doubt in my mind there is a reduced population. I have seen it first hand in the area that I hunt.

It is not just a harvest thing or we would have never been able to have those 5 years in a row averaging 244,000, unless we had a much higher population in year one than was estimated. The left over population was able to sustain the herd size growth equal to the harvest of the decline would happen the second year

It is a math thing, if it works one direction in works the other direction. Harvest is less than population birth rate and the numbers must start to go up. That is how we grew to the population numbers to begin with. What has changed that the deer herd can not sustain itself to harvest now?

What percentage of the deer herd is harvested each year?

Is this percentage of harvest different that it was in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010?

I just don't think it is all over harvest, while that is the easiest to point to, it just doesn't explain the harvest numbers and what I am seeing where I hunt. We sure didn't hurt the does over those high kill years, but the population is lower. Why?
 

brock ratcliff

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Lundy, the kill is a huge factor. Each time the harvest showed stabilization, another season was added, more tags allocated. If the DoW had not introduced those variable, I believe the harvest would have remained flat for a decade...the herd did not expand over night as Mike T's revised estimates did...we just killed a higher percenatage. In my world, coyotes are the issue that hampers recruitment, and a factor Mike T readily admits he does not calculate. In areas, its proven cause 50 percent fawn mortality. I suspect percentage wise its much higher in low density areas. Again, something I spoke w Mike T about, and something he could care less about. His idea of balancing the herd is to turn us loose to shoot them. When they are gone, we'll quit, they'll come back.
 

RedCloud

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North Central Ohio
I don't think the 1.5 or 1.7 recruitment is correct. It might be if it is a controlled environment and take out as many of the variables as possible.I can't tell you how many doe I have seen over the past few years with no fawns at all. Did yote get them? perhaps. Did the lone doe not get knocked up? perhaps. She may have been too young for mating season as she may have been a late fawn. Was the doe bred and not get pregnant? Possible. Not every woman we ever slept with not wearing a condom had a kid by us from that one time. 2nd rut you say? Well, I'm sure there are some that come into season later in the year as I have seen fawns in late October with spots. Some still go without being bred. Just imagine going to a bar every day/night for a month and then have somebody chase you with a gun for another couple weeks. Pretty sure after 1.5 months of running your ass off the last thing on your mind is to go get some tail lol.

Many different reasons for the decrease and we can't forget about EHD or other diseases that killed off a lot of deer and there is no way to accurately say how many died. You can only count the ones that was found and reported. Sure there was many more returned to the earth that was never found. The ODNR isn't looking at any of this since the only look at dead deer tagged in.
 

Beentown

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Supporting Member
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Sunbury, OH
Lundy, the kill is a huge factor. Each time the harvest showed stabilization, another season was added, more tags allocated. If the DoW had not introduced those variable, I believe the harvest would have remained flat for a decade...the herd did not expand over night as Mike T's revised estimates did...we just killed a higher percenatage. In my world, coyotes are the issue that hampers recruitment, and a factor Mike T readily admits he does not calculate. In areas, its proven cause 50 percent fawn mortality. I suspect percentage wise its much higher in low density areas. Again, something I spoke w Mike T about, and something he could care less about. His idea of balancing the herd is to turn us loose to shoot them. When they are gone, we'll quit, they'll come back.

That predator/prey management is lazy bullshit. Why evenly them to manage it then?
 

Fullbore

Senior Member
6,439
126
South Eastern Ohio
I still think that coyotes kill more deer, mainly fawns than we can ever imagine. You combine those unforeseen kills with over harvesting? The numbers are sure to go down. Imp
 

CritterGitterToo

Junior Member
375
58
Central Ohio
Lundy, the kill is a huge factor. Each time the harvest showed stabilization, another season was added, more tags allocated. If the DoW had not introduced those variable, I believe the harvest would have remained flat for a decade...the herd did not expand over night as Mike T's revised estimates did...we just killed a higher percenatage. In my world, coyotes are the issue that hampers recruitment, and a factor Mike T readily admits he does not calculate. In areas, its proven cause 50 percent fawn mortality. I suspect percentage wise its much higher in low density areas. Again, something I spoke w Mike T about, and something he could care less about. His idea of balancing the herd is to turn us loose to shoot them. When they are gone, we'll quit, they'll come back.

That isn't deer management. That sounds more like an appeasement program for insurance companies and farm bureaus. Is that out of the Farm Bureau manual or did he bring that with him from PA? He did such a good job over there right.
 

yotehunter

Member
1,527
36
spencerville oh
I've heard it said that the DOW would like to see the harvest back to what it was in the 80's. I venture a guess that if we were only allowed to hunt 6 days with shotguns, muzzle loaders had to be side lock percussions or flint lock, cross bows had to be a PSE Foxfire, Starfire, Crossfire, or Barnett Wildcat, nothing better than a 1989 Cougar Mag or PSE Mach flight 4 for a bow...and I guarantee there would be less deer killed now than we killed in 88.

Oh yeah, and only one tag...except for those first 11 counties that were allowed to kill one extra doe.
Xactly
 

yotehunter

Member
1,527
36
spencerville oh
I still think that coyotes kill more deer, mainly fawns than we can ever imagine. You combine those unforeseen kills with over harvesting? The numbers are sure to go down. Imp

I agree too some extent fullbore but I can't believe in my area that coyotes and hunters have declined the numbers by those two reasons. There is more going on then just that. In my area there are three groups that run hound for coyotes. Last year between the three groups killed roughly 80 to90 coyotes within a 25 mile square area. And this year there is just as many. But when the deer yarded up last year around here there was plenty too be seen in the normal yarding spots and it seem like overnight they were gone. I believe disease is a bigger killer then we think and odnr believes I'm sorry a coyotes main diet is mice and birds not full grown healthy deer. Will they get a fawn yes but were did the deer go that was matured last year. It seem to happy over the spring and summer. They just disappeared. Same way with the muskrats the rumor is they have went sterile, and I do know there isn't a muskrat to be caught in five miles of my house. So something is definatley going on . Is it the water in the ditches, is it the fertilizers we are putting on the fields is it the gene altered crops we are raising that the critters are eating? As red cloud stated the only deer that odnr are testing is the healthy ones shot by hunters. There is more going on then just coyotes and hunters.
 
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brock ratcliff

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That isn't deer management. That sounds more like an appeasement program for insurance companies and farm bureaus. Is that out of the Farm Bureau manual or did he bring that with him from PA? He did such a good job over there right.

When was he in PA? All I know is Tonk started his job in 1995 here in Ohio. Our total kill was 179K that year, and there were deer most anywhere you wanted to look.
 

RedCloud

Super Moderator
Super Mod
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North Central Ohio
I agree too some extent fullbore but I can't believe in my area that coyotes and hunters have declined the numbers by those two reasons. There is more going on then just that. In my area there are three groups that run hound for coyotes. Last year between the three groups killed roughly 80 to90 coyotes within a 25 mile square area. And this year there is just as many. But when the deer yarded up last year around here there was plenty too be seen in the normal yarding spots and it seem like overnight they were gone. I believe disease is a bigger killer then we think and odnr believes I'm sorry a coyotes main diet is mice and birds not full grown healthy deer. Will they get a fawn yes but were did the deer go that was matured last year. It seem to happy over the spring and summer. They just disappeared. Same way with the muskrats the rumor is they have went sterile, and I do know there isn't a muskrat to be caught in five miles of my house. So something is definatley going on . Is it the water in the ditches, is it the fertilizers we are putting on the fields is it the gene altered crops we are raising that the critters are eating? As red cloud stated the only deer that odnr are testing is the healthy ones shot by hunters. There is more going on then just coyotes and hunters.

The DNR is testing even fewer then the 7-9k they use to each year. They use to gain a bunch of info across the state at checking stations and processors. With no need to go get a deer checked in now and more people butchering their own deer that data is not collected by WO and is simply relayed to the DNR by the hunters when they click or call in their harvest now. Healthy deer or a sick deer not yet showing signs of illness makes no difference with the new way of doing business.

If I had to venture a guess the DNR only looks at maybe 2k deer a year now. That is less then 1% of the herd size. How accurate can that data be?
 

RedCloud

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When was he in PA? All I know is Tonk started his job in 1995 here in Ohio. Our total kill was 179K that year, and there were deer most anywhere you wanted to look.

Just think, in 1995 the estimated deer herd size was only 450k and we had more deer then or it seemed a little easier to find them then now. Crazy isn't it lol.
 

jagermeister

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The DNR is testing even fewer then the 7-9k they use to each year. They use to gain a bunch of info across the state at checking stations and processors. With no need to go get a deer checked in now and more people butchering their own deer that data is not collected by WO and is simply relayed to the DNR by the hunters when they click or call in their harvest now. Healthy deer or a sick deer not yet showing signs of illness makes no difference with the new way of doing business.

If I had to venture a guess the DNR only looks at maybe 2k deer a year now. That is less then 1% of the herd size. How accurate can that data be?

They are still obtaining all kinds of data... Still working at deer processors, probably more intently than ever, actually.
 

Lundy

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They are still obtaining all kinds of data... Still working at deer processors, probably more intently than ever, actually.

Mike T himself was at the deer processor in Athens both days I visited during gun season aging deer and doing whatever else he does when he checks them over.