Killing the Gobbles

bowhunter1023 · May 10, 2013

I've heard the theory, in fact Mike Rex may have mentioned this at one time, that the reason we hear less gobbling is that birds who gobble, die. In other words, the most vocal of birds are the easiest to kill and that trait gets cut from the herd every time we kill a vocal bird.

Any one ever give this any thought?

brock ratcliff · May 10, 2013

I've heard Mike mention that. I don't think it holds much water though. The reason we are not hearing much gobbling this year is because there are not many 2 year olds out there this season. That can be blamed on a poor hatch a couple of years ago. Next season, the woods should rumble as I think we had a good hatch last season. The DoW predicted this season would be relatively quiet due to the lack of two year olds, I think they are right.

moundhill · May 10, 2013

I think it's a mix of both of those theories, and the fact that coyote numbers keep rising.

Diablo54 · May 10, 2013

I'm calling bs on that theory

bowhunter1023 · May 10, 2013

brock ratcliff said:
I've heard Mike mention that. I don't think it holds much water though. The reason we are not hearing much gobbling this year is because there are not many 2 year olds out there this season. That can be blamed on a poor hatch a couple of years ago. Next season, the woods should rumble as I think we had a good hatch last season. The DoW predicted this season would be relatively quiet due to the lack of two year olds, I think they are right.

If you kill a similar trait out of a group of older, smarter birds, does that not also have an impact on the genetic predisposition to gobble?

I have no idea, just a thought...

brock ratcliff · May 10, 2013

I suppose it could, but I don't think so. Mike also believes with hunter focus switching to higher scoring deer, we will alter the genetics negatively in the future. In other words, if we hold out and shoot only "pretty" or symmetrical racks we will be left only with ugly, freaky, and poor scoring antlers. I don't buy that either for the simple reason a lot of breeding is done by younger bucks that aren't old enough to showcase what their antler potential is. I think there will be a variety of antlers in the future as there is now, and I think there will always be turkeys that want to gobble.

In the 80's I remember standing on ridge tops in Vinton County and hearing turkeys gobbling their heads off in every direction, on every hill around. If I were to go there now, I suspect I'd be lucky to hear one or two gobbling. In that case, it isn't that they don't want to gobble, it's that there are no where near as many turkeys there as there was in the 80's. Same thing with grouse... I don't think we've killed the drumming gene out of them, they just aren't there these days.

Turkeys are funny critters. Some days they all want to be heard. Some days none of them will say a word. And yet some days a few will sound off a little, while the one you know is roosted above you won't say a word. I've killed one turkey that had spurs over 1 1/2". I killed him on a rainy morning when I didn't think I'd hear a single gobble. He gobbled non-stop on the roost and was still gobbling when I called him to me. The two gobblers with him did not say a word. I have no idea why that turkey was so fired up, or why his buddies seemed like they were just along for the ride. I also have no idea how a turkey could live long enough to grow spurs like that on that piece of ground...it's public, and hunted extremely hard!

Point being, I don't think we've altered any genetics by shooting mouthy turkeys. Then again, maybe we have. Of all the theories I've heard, I like the coyote theory best. I imagine even the dumbest of turkeys can figure out if they sound off too much a coyote is likely to come looking.

brock ratcliff · May 10, 2013

Jesse said:
If you kill a similar trait out of a group of older, smarter birds, does that not also have an impact on the genetic predisposition to gobble?

I have no idea, just a thought...

They key in your post is the word "older". Most birds that gobble a lot are young... 2 year olds.

aholdren · May 10, 2013

brock ratcliff said:
I suppose it could, but I don't think so. Mike also believes with hunter focus switching to higher scoring deer, we will alter the genetics negatively in the future. In other words, if we hold out and shoot only "pretty" or symmetrical racks we will be left only with ugly, freaky, and poor scoring antlers. I don't buy that either for the simple reason a lot of breeding is done by younger bucks that aren't old enough to showcase what their antler potential is. I think there will be a variety of antlers in the future as there is now, and I think there will always be turkeys that want to gobble.

In the 80's I remember standing on ridge tops in Vinton County and hearing turkeys gobbling their heads off in every direction, on every hill around. If I were to go there now, I suspect I'd be lucky to hear one or two gobbling. In that case, it isn't that they don't want to gobble, it's that there are no where near as many turkeys there as there was in the 80's. Same thing with grouse... I don't think we've killed the drumming gene out of them, they just aren't there these days.

Turkeys are funny critters. Some days they all want to be heard. Some days none of them will say a word. And yet some days a few will sound off a little, while the one you know is roosted above you won't say a word. I've killed one turkey that had spurs over 1 1/2". I killed him on a rainy morning when I didn't think I'd hear a single gobble. He gobbled non-stop on the roost and was still gobbling when I called him to me. The two gobblers with him did not say a word. I have no idea why that turkey was so fired up, or why his buddies seemed like they were just along for the ride. I also have no idea how a turkey could live long enough to grow spurs like that on that piece of ground...it's public, and hunted extremely hard!

Point being, I don't think we've altered any genetics by shooting mouthy turkeys. Then again, maybe we have. Of all the theories I've heard, I like the coyote theory best. I imagine even the dumbest of turkeys can figure out if they sound off too much a coyote is likely to come looking.

That is my experience also Brock. I remember Mike saying Eddie said that about Alabama. I love to hear them gobble like everyone else and usually those birds that just rip it are the 2yr olds. My mom and I hunted this morning and never heard a bird till 830, we found 2 hammering in a hollow, and with my mom needing knee surgery in a week, we had to stay in the field on level ground. We had them at 20yrds but they wouldn't come out of the woods and into the field. We walked away enjoying an awesome day, some days they want to die and some days they don't. I honestly don't believe you can "Shoot the gobble out of Turkeys".

jagermeister · May 10, 2013

brock ratcliff said:
I've heard Mike mention that. I don't think it holds much water though. The reason we are not hearing much gobbling this year is because there are not many 2 year olds out there this season. That can be blamed on a poor hatch a couple of years ago. Next season, the woods should rumble as I think we had a good hatch last season. The DoW predicted this season would be relatively quiet due to the lack of two year olds, I think they are right.

I'm with you 100% on this one, Brock.

Mike's theory does hold some water though, IMO. Hunters are predators, and whenever a predator is killing prey... specifically prey displaying physiological traits which make them easier to kill... the prey who do not display these traits will be more likely to pass on their genetics. Obviously, as you know, that's the basis for natural selection. The gobbling... the huge symmetrical racks on deer... those are traits that result in more gun barrels and sharp sticks being pointed in that animal's direction. We, as predators, are more likely to remove those animals from the population. My opinion though is that hunters are too inconsistent in their killing to make a noticeable difference in the population's characteristics... at least with deer and turkeys. Some hunters shoot jakes, some hunters shoot spike bucks, some hunters don't shoot anything. It's too inconsistent. True natural selection usually takes hundreds or thousands of years... We certainly won't see any change in our lifetimes. In contrast, you don't see waterfowl hunters picking and choosing which drake mallard to shoot out of a flock... If it's got a green head, it gets shot. The harvest and the pressure is pretty damn consistent. And what a lot of hunters are beginning to see are flocks of ducks feeding in fields all through the night, when of course they can't be hunted. Is this a learned behavior?... or have we as hunters facilitated that pattern by shooting the day-feeding ducks? Hard to say. Maybe a little of both.

Boarhead · May 11, 2013

brock ratcliff said:
I suppose it could, but I don't think so. Mike also believes with hunter focus switching to higher scoring deer, we will alter the genetics negatively in the future. In other words, if we hold out and shoot only "pretty" or symmetrical racks we will be left only with ugly, freaky, and poor scoring antlers. I don't buy that either for the simple reason a lot of breeding is done by younger bucks that aren't old enough to showcase what their antler potential is. I think there will be a variety of antlers in the future as there is now, and I think there will always be turkeys that want to gobble.

In the 80's I remember standing on ridge tops in Vinton County and hearing turkeys gobbling their heads off in every direction, on every hill around. If I were to go there now, I suspect I'd be lucky to hear one or two gobbling. In that case, it isn't that they don't want to gobble, it's that there are no where near as many turkeys there as there was in the 80's. Same thing with grouse... I don't think we've killed the drumming gene out of them, they just aren't there these days.

Turkeys are funny critters. Some days they all want to be heard. Some days none of them will say a word. And yet some days a few will sound off a little, while the one you know is roosted above you won't say a word. I've killed one turkey that had spurs over 1 1/2". I killed him on a rainy morning when I didn't think I'd hear a single gobble. He gobbled non-stop on the roost and was still gobbling when I called him to me. The two gobblers with him did not say a word. I have no idea why that turkey was so fired up, or why his buddies seemed like they were just along for the ride. I also have no idea how a turkey could live long enough to grow spurs like that on that piece of ground...it's public, and hunted extremely hard!

Point being, I don't think we've altered any genetics by shooting mouthy turkeys. Then again, maybe we have. Of all the theories I've heard, I like the coyote theory best. I imagine even the dumbest of turkeys can figure out if they sound off too much a coyote is likely to come looking.

I agree with you on their not being as many turkeys as their once was.I remember killing my first bird back in the 80s one early morning in Vinton County and just sitting there till 11 am listening to birds gobble all morning long.I counted over 20 birds gobbling on all the ridges that morning.I think the gobbling was good like that up until around the mid 90s but it sure has gone down hill from there.It just seemed like after the early gobbling you just knew you could always get in on a late morning bird but now they hardly ever gobble late morning at least not like they did back then.Those were the good old days of Turkey hunting and i feel sorry for the new turkey hunters today that never got to experience that.Then again it would just spoil them like it did us so maybe we are the ones i should be feeling sorry for.HaHa I also think the coyote theory might have somthing to do with it.

mrex · May 11, 2013

aholdren said:
That is my experience also Brock. I remember Mike saying Eddie said that about Alabama. I love to hear them gobble like everyone else and usually those birds that just rip it are the 2yr olds. My mom and I hunted this morning and never heard a bird till 830, we found 2 hammering in a hollow, and with my mom needing knee surgery in a week, we had to stay in the field on level ground. We had them at 20yrds but they wouldn't come out of the woods and into the field. We walked away enjoying an awesome day, some days they want to die and some days they don't. I honestly don't believe you can "Shoot the gobble out of Turkeys".

That’s correct, I heard this theory from Eddie and he heard it from Dr. Kennamer. Dog breeders can breed characteristics in and out of dogs in just a few generations. Although, unlike dogs, turkeys do not learn from their mistakes. But it’s certainly possible that over time we can alter the way they act. Gobblers primarily gobble to attract hens. They also tell every predator in the woods their exact location each time they sound off so they don’t like to gobble any more than necessary. It makes a lot of sense to me that all predators including coyotes are altering the way they act. A friend of mine called in a bobcat with hen yelps the first day of the season here in Athens Co.

Speaking of Eddie Salter and Athens County, Eddie made his annual trek to SE Ohio last week. He’s hunted with us the past 24 springs and killed 24 gobblers. This year my son took him as I had a work commitment that morning. Eddie told Ryan that he heard more gobbling in 1 morning up here than his entire season in Alabama.

A bigger problem in some areas is gobbler to hen ratios. This is why established flocks, (like Vinton Co), are harder to hunt than areas where the numbers are expanding. It’s not that the birds aren’t there; they’re just not as vocal. I don’t believe Gobblers that inhabit heavily hunted areas like most public land are any more “wary” than unmolested birds…they just have less competition for available hens. I also agree that a turkey’s mood can change with the wind.

The hatch is regional in scope. A poorly timed thunderstorm or 40 degree rain will greatly alter the hatch from one township to the next. Apparently, my area was spared the past few years as we are having an excellent season…if a few of my friends could shoot a little better we’d be averaging over 1 a day. We like to hunt mushrooms and it’s been a banner year for them also. I can’t remember a spring going back to the early 80’s where the turkey and mushroom hunting were both this good in the same year.

Kaiser878 · May 12, 2013

mrex said:
That’s correct, I heard this theory from Eddie and he heard it from Dr. Kennamer. Dog breeders can breed characteristics in and out of dogs in just a few generations. Although, unlike dogs, turkeys do not learn from their mistakes. But it’s certainly possible that over time we can alter the way they act. Gobblers primarily gobble to attract hens. They also tell every predator in the woods their exact location each time they sound off so they don’t like to gobble any more than necessary. It makes a lot of sense to me that all predators including coyotes are altering the way they act. A friend of mine called in a bobcat with hen yelps the first day of the season here in Athens Co.

Speaking of Eddie Salter and Athens County, Eddie made his annual trek to SE Ohio last week. He’s hunted with us the past 24 springs and killed 24 gobblers. This year my son took him as I had a work commitment that morning. Eddie told Ryan that he heard more gobbling in 1 morning up here than his entire season in Alabama.

A bigger problem in some areas is gobbler to hen ratios. This is why established flocks, (like Vinton Co), are harder to hunt than areas where the numbers are expanding. It’s not that the birds aren’t there; they’re just not as vocal. I don’t believe Gobblers that inhabit heavily hunted areas like most public land are any more “wary” than unmolested birds…they just have less competition for available hens. I also agree that a turkey’s mood can change with the wind.

The hatch is regional in scope. A poorly timed thunderstorm or 40 degree rain will greatly alter the hatch from one township to the next. Apparently, my area was spared the past few years as we are having an excellent season…if a few of my friends could shoot a little better we’d be averaging over 1 a day. We like to hunt mushrooms and it’s been a banner year for them also. I can’t remember a spring going back to the early 80’s where the turkey and mushroom hunting were both this good in the same year.

I think this is more to blame than any other factor... I also believe this is why birds will gobble on the roost in my area then shut up and not gobble once they are on the ground.. In terms of instinct, a tom has really no reason to gobble once he hits the ground and is surrounded by his hens... Every bird I hunted this year was surrounded by hens... I got lucky and found a 2 y/o that apparently got lost from hens and killed him the first wednesday.. After that it was nothing but henned up toms...to kill my second bird I had to sit and wait out the hens...not the way Id like to kill one...but It was the only way I was going to kill this particular bird... as I am not the greatest turkey called in the woods....

The next day I took a buddy out... heard one bird gobble off the roost....so we set up on it...then had another down the ridge hammering....so we moved down 100 yards...it gobbled two more times once we were set up...never gobbled again...so we moved back up the ridge and I thought I saw a tail fan... We got situated I purred a few times and 4 strutters came walking down the trail with a group of hens...... Not a single gobble out of any of them... once they got to about 30 yards the only sounds they were making was spitting and drumming....Then the next sound....welll duhhh.... was BANG....Wish I had a tag left for that day...

Jackalope · May 12, 2013

I'm not so sure we can shoot the gobble out of them. I think they just learn there are better ways to meet hens than gobbling their heads off. Jakes gobble a ton, 2yo gobble good, and 3 year olds are picky bastards who I think rarely gobble except a few select mornings. I think it's a combo of learning how better to meet hens, being the dominant bird already having hens. I think the you get birds gobble a bunch because they have to find lone hens or try to pull one away. The older toms have their flock and are undisputed kings. I think they get to roost closer to the hens, and they know if they go to the same spot every morning the hens will show up too. They understand the pattern after a couple breeding seasons. It's like us and women. When I was 18 if I knew what I do now at 32 I would have been swimming in ass.

mrex · May 12, 2013

My boys got on this bird last week around 10:00 am. Nine set up's later and through two driving rain storms they killed him at 5:00 pm. At 4:00 pm he separated from a hen he'd been trailing all day. They said he gobbled at least 500 times with the hen and never slowed down even during the rain. Razor sharp pearl white / black tip spur...solid 4/5 year old gobbler.

I told them this was as close to a "trophy" turkey as they come. Not because of the spurs but rather what they had to do to kill him.

Conversely, we killed this 3 year old a few hours ago right off the roost.

We were set up on a couple good gobbling turkeys we roosted last night when this bird showed up spitting and drumming from the opposite direction. Had the woods not been so still this am we probably would have spooked him as he never gobbled until he got into range.

Kaiser878 · May 12, 2013

All this talk and pictures are making me wish I had a tag left.......

Jackalope · May 12, 2013

Damn nice bird mike. Tell them congrats.

We didn't hear a gobble in here this morning which is strange because this place is packed with birds. About 8 we were making our way to various setups real slow and calling. Walked up to one spot and we spotted a bird about 100 yards away to our left going towards a field. I hit the slate and he spun on a dime running right at us. He got to 50 yards and stopped. Putted twice. And ran back the way he came. Stupid birds. I know he didn't see us. I think his brain just told him he screwed up. He lives another day. Well. At least another week.

mrex · May 12, 2013

Kaiser878 said:
All this talk and pictures are making me wish I had a tag left.......

Tags? What do you need those for Zach? :smile: To me, the fun part of spring turkey hunting is hearing them gobble. I went the entire decade of the 1990's carrying a video camera and most of the last decade a mushroom stick. I came out of retirement in 2010 when my son needed gunners for his high school senior project...a turkey hunting video.

My oldest son asked if he could call one up for me on my birthday last year.

My youngest son asked this year.

...and besides, what's more fun than laughing at your huntin' buddies when they screw up?

hickslawns · May 12, 2013

I remember that 2010 story. That was some good stuff Mike! Nice to see your youngest son was able to offer the same present with success. Those are stories you will still be able to share when you are an old old man.

Kaiser878 · May 12, 2013

mrex said:
Tags? What do you need those for Zach? :smile: To me, the fun part of spring turkey hunting is hearing them gobble. I went the entire decade of the 1990's carrying a video camera and most of the last decade a mushroom stick. I came out of retirement in 2010 when my son needed gunners for his high school senior project...a turkey hunting video.

My oldest son asked if he could call one up for me on my birthday last year.

My youngest son asked this year.

...and besides, what's more fun than laughing at your huntin' buddies when they screw up?

Ha ya I guess....The buddy I took out from the previous thread is not hunting anymore this spring...My g/f has a tag...but our work schedules are crazy rt now and we are both super busy with the house we just bought...so getting time to take her out has been rough... All of my other friends who turkey hunt are also done for the season.... There is just something about calling one in and watching it get taken out that excites me... Turkey hunting is one of the only types of hunting I enjoy watching other people shoot birds just as much as I like to shoot them myself.... There is just something about it

Gordo · May 12, 2013

Team Rex takin care of business. Great stuff. Like clock work. Congrats.

One of these years i'll hit the turkey woods again. Times always hard to come by in the spring

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